Kerr Watch

Elapsed time since Richard Kerr failed to inform his Science readers of the confirmation of nanodiamonds at the YDB: 6 years, 4 months, and 4 days

Guest Blog: E.P. Grodine's compilation of The First Peoples' accounts of the YD Impacts

From Man and Impacts in the Americas by E.P. Grondine. See here for Ed’s Dead Car Special!

SOME OF FIRST PEOPLES’ ACCOUNTS OF THE YD IMPACTS

As far as the 10,900 BCE comet impact event, many of the peoples remembered it. I included some of them in my book “Man and Impact in the Americas”, though at that time (2005) I misdated them to the end paleo at 8,350 BCE, instead of the now known 10,900 BCE.

For me, at that time, the end of use of many quarries at 8,350 BCE most likely was again caused by comet or asteroid impact, simply because nothing else could account for such a sudden and massive change in population. But it turned out the people who introduced of maritime technologies (Dalton archaic maritime white serated edge points 8,350 BCE), brought new diseases from Europe with thmem.

I also don’t know if I am right in this, but from what I have seen so far only the Fort Payne and one other quarry on the Tennessee-Kentucky border remained in use in eastern North America, so human die off must have been around 90%.

Given modern elephants food requirements, most mammoth and mastodon must have starved to death within a few weeks. There may have been a few survivors, but most would have died.

A FIVE NATIONS ACCOUNT OF THE HOLOCENE START IMPACTS FROM
DAVID CUSICK’S SKETCHES OF THE ANCIENT HISTORY OF THE SIX NATIONS:

“It came to pass that the Good Mind, as he traveled from place to place, after a while went along the shore of the lake (Lake Ontario). There, not far away, he saw the Bad Mind making for himself a bridge of ice across the lake, a bridge which already extended far out on the water.

Thereupon the Good Mind went to the place where the Bad Mind was working, and when he arrived there, he said: “Tawi’skaron, what is this that you are doing for yourself?” The Bad Mind replied, saying: “I am making a pathway for myself.” And then, pointing in the direction toward which he was building the bridge, he added: “In that direction there is a land where dwell great animals of fierce dispositions. As soon as I complete my pathway to that other land, thereafter they will habitually come over. Along this pathway they will be in the habit of coming across the lake to eat the flesh of human beings who are about to dwell on the earth.”

So then the Good Mind said to the Bad Mind: “You should stop the work which you are doing. Surely the intention of your mind is not good.” The Bad Mind replied, saying: “I will not cease from what I am doing, for, of course, it is good that these great animals shall be in the habit of coming here to eat the flesh of human beings who will dwell here.”

So of course the Bad Mind did not obey and cease from building the bridge for himself, and thereupon the Good Mind turned back and reached dry land. Now along the shore of the sea grew shrubs, and he saw a bird sitting on a limb of one. The bird belonged to the class of birds which we call the bluebirds. And the Good Mind then said to this Bluebird: “You shall kill a cricket. You shall remove one hind leg from it, and you shall hold it in your mouth, and you shall go there to the very place where the Bad Mind is working. You shall land very near to the place where he is working, and you shall cry out.”

“And the Bluebird replied, saying, “Yo”. Thereupon the Bluebird truly did seek for a cricket, and after a while it found one, and it killed it, too. Then it pulled out one of the cricket’s hind legs and put it into its mouth to hold, and then it flew, winging its way to the place where the Bad Mind was at work making his ice bridge.

There it landed, near to him at his task. And of course it then shouted, “Kwe’, kwe’, kwe’, kwe’, kwe’.” At which the Bad Mind raised up his head and looked, and he saw the bluebird sitting there. He believed from what he saw that the bluebird held in its mouth the thigh of a man, and also that its mouth was wholly covered with blood.

It was then that the Bad Mind sprang up at once and fled. As fast as he ran the bridge of ice which he was making dissipated.”

[This Bluebird with its mouth covered with blood, whose appearance caused the ice to melt appears to have been the comet whose impact has now been well evidenced by Kenneth et al. at 10,900 BCE.]

A POSSIBLE LENAPE ACCOUNT OF THE HOLOCENE START IMPACT EVENTS

[While C.S. Rafinesques has been under attack, and he has been accused of concocting
the Walam Olum, see the discussion here:
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=848.0 ]

1. Long ago there was a Mighty Snake [comet], and beings evil to men.
2. This Mighty Snake [comet] hated those who were there,
(and) he greatly disquieted those whom he hated.
3. He harmed all things, he injured all things,
and all were not in peace.
4. Driven from their homes, the men fought with this murderer.
5. The Mighty Snake [comet] firmly resolved to harm the men.
6. The Mighty Snake [comet] brought three persons [fragments?],
he brought a monster [impact],
he brought rushing water [an impact mega-tsunami or flood from melt].
7. Between the hills the water rushed and rushed,
dashing through and through, destroying much.
8. Nanabush, the Strong White One, Grandfather of beings,
Grandfather of men, was on Turtle Island.

[While “Turtle Island” has certain allegorical aspects , it is strange to see the turtle play such an essential role in Lenape legend. Turtles are reptiles, and for the most part are unable to generate internal heat to warm their bodies, which limits their range to temperate climates; there are and were none of these in the far north of the Lenape people’s original homeland. The only possible exception here may have been sea turtles, which thrive in warm water: perhaps the Japanese Current provided warm water to the west coast of Canada, and “Turtle Island” refers to west coastal Canada before the end of the last Ice Age.]

9. There he was walking and creating:
and as he passed by,
he created the turtle [skin boats?].
10. Beings and men all went forth,
they walked in the floods and shallow waters,
down stream there in the turtle [skin boats?].
11. There were many monster fishes, which ate some of them.
12. The Great Mind’s daughter came,
and helped with her canoe [wooden boat]:
she helped all, as they came and came.
13. Thus Nanabush, Nanabush, the Grandfather of all,
the Grandfather of beings, the Grandfather of men,
became the Grandfather of the turtle [skin boats?].
14. The men were then together on the Great Turtle [the Earth],
like turtles.
15. Frightened on the Great Turtle [the Earth],
they prayed that what was spoiled should be restored.
16. The water ran off, the earth dried, the lakes were at rest,
all was silent, and the Mighty Snake [comet] departed.

THE HOLOCENE CLIMATE COLLAPSE:
THE LENAPE MIGRATE EAST, THEN SOUTH

Whether these impacts were the cause of the end of the Ice Age or just coincidental to it is a hotly debated topic. Whatever the cause, the climate did begin to change.

Part III
1. After the rushing waters [had finished],
the Lenape of the [Sea] Turtle were close together,
living together there in hollow houses..
2. It froze where they lived, it snowed where they lived,
it stormed where they lived, it was cold where they lived.
3. At this northern place they spoke favorably
of mild, cool [lands], with many deer and buffaloes.
4. As they journeyed, some being strong, and others rich,
they separated into house-builders and hunters;
5. The strongest, the most united, the purest, were the hunters.
6. The hunters showed themselves at the north, at the east,
at the south, at the west.

ATTACK ON THE SNAKES [MISSASAUGA]

7. In that ancient country, in that northern country,
in that [Sea] Turtle Country,
the best of the Lenape were the men of the Turtle Clan.

[Perhaps the Turtle Clan were the boat builders.]

“8. All the cabin fires of that land were disquieted,
and all said to their priest, “Let us go.”
9. They went forth to the Snake [Missasauga] Land to the east,
going away earnestly grieving.”

[Snakes, like turtles, are also reptiles, and for the most part are also unable to generate internal heat to warm their bodies. This also limits their range to temperate climates, and there are and were none of these in the far north. The northernmost range of snakes, and in particular of the poisonous Missasauga rattlesnake, would appear to be along the Saint Lawrence at its junction with Lake Erie.]

“10. Split asunder, weak, trembling, their land burned,
they went, torn and broken, to the Snake [Missasauga] Land.”

ANOTHER ACCOUNT OF A HOLOCENE START IMPACT ON THE SAINT LAWRENCE RIVER

The following passage has been adapted to modern usage from an account given by Tuscaroran Chief Elias Johnson.

“A Great Horned Serpent also next appeared on Lake Ontario who, by means of his poisonous breath, caused disease, and caused the death of many. [climate collapse by dust veil?]

At length the old women congregated, with one accord, and prayed to the Great Spirit that he would send their grandfather, the Thunder, who would get to their relief in this, their sore time of trouble, while at the same time burning tobacco as burned offerings. And so finally the monster was compelled to retire in the deeps of the lake by thunderbolts.

Before this calamity was forgotten another happened. A blazing star fell into their fort, situated on the banks of the St. Lawrence, and destroyed the people. Such a phenomenon caused a great panic and consternation and dread, which they regarded as ominous of their entire destruction. Not long after this prediction of the blazing star it was verified.

These tribes, who were held together by feeble ties, fell into dispute and wars among themselves, which were pursued through a long period, until they had utterly destroyed each other, and so reduced their numbers that the lands were again overrun with wild beasts.

At this period there were six families who took refuge in a large cave in a mountain, where they dwelled for a long time. The men would come out occasionally to hunt for food. This great cave was situated at or near the falls of the Oswego River.

The Holder of the Heavens then came and extricated these six families from the subterraneous bowels and confines of the mountain. The people always looked to this divine messenger, who had power to assume various shapes as emergency demanded, as the friend and patron of their nation.

This company were a particular body, which called themselves of One Household. Of these there were six families, and they entered into an agreement to preserve the chain of alliance which should not be extinguished under any circumstance.”

THE SHAWNEE ACCOUNT

[I hope you will bear with me here, as I need to make a record of this Shawnee tradition of the Holocene Start Impacts. This comes from Albert S. Gatschet’s manuscript, which was not available to me when I assembled “Man and Impact in the Americas”, and so this tradition was not included in my book.]

A SHAWNEE TRADITION OF THE HOLOCENE START IMPACTS

[The following mythic tale of the Battle of the Good Mind and the Bad Mind was also held by the Tuscorora, and David Cusick’s version of it from his “Sketched of the Ancient Histoy of the Six Nstions, is given complete in my own book “Man and Impact in the Americas”.

This shared tradition is not surprising, as Iroquoian people comprised the first of the three streams that joined to form the Shawnee people. A later borrowing of this tale by the Shawneee can be ruled out.]

The version given here came from Thomas Staind and William Tookey, was elucidated by Thomas Dougherty, and preserved through the hard work of Albert Gatschet.

THE BATTTLE OF THE GOOD MIND AND THE BAD MIND

One of the Twins was the Creator [the Good Mind – Wessi Manitou, elsewhere in the manuscript] and the other the Destroyer, or the Bad Mind (Maeche Manitou, the Bad Spirit). The first was born properly. The second was not born properly; He was born from his mother’s side.

Both of them started off. The Creator headed for the Center (Taheliki), just there he came, and then they both came to the Center (Taheliki).

Then one of them wanted to know what they were going to do,
then one of them went to the East, the other to the West,
One of them by turning went towards the place where the Sun rises(East).

“Let us go (to the Center)” the Bad Mind said to the Good Mind (Spirit),
“There we will look at what each of us has created.

“Too much and too good have you created everything”, the Bad Mind said.
“you have given them too much – you have created too much good.”

For everything was created so well that people would altogether be too lazy.

[Dougherty(?) elucidated this as “When the Bad Mind went west, he returned, and said to the Good Mind, “You created everything too well, the children will be too lazy.”]

Then the Good Mind spoke to the Evil Mind.
“Everything too badly you have created, even large snakes [COMETS] even those which will kill people. You have badly created even worse than that.”

(Dougherty(?) told this as “To the Bad Mind the Good Mind said, “You created everything wrong while going west – big snakes would kill a person, thorns (cactus, most likely a later western insertion of detail) – and your creations would be obnoxious to people.)

Now then they were returning back to where they started.
Then the Bad Mind asked the Good Mind, “What are you afraid of?”
“Of horns”, he [the Good Mind] answered.
“And what are you afraid of?”, he [the Good Mind] asked.
“Of flagweeds (hapwaki), they will strangle me if you strike me.
[I think it most likely that these “flags” were some kind of poison used in hunting.]
Then the Bad Mind said “You first”
“Then not you will be first in turn? That is agreeable.”, said the Good Mind.
Then he ran towards the sunrise (east). In that direction he ran, and the Bad Mind followed.

Ten times, twelve times, they piled the flags upon one another, until they reached the piles of flags came to an end, and then they returned to the Center.

Then the Bad Mind ran to the west. In that direction he ran, and the Good Mind ran after him.
Ten times, twelve times, horns were piled in that direction.
The Good Mind picked up the horns as he was running, and he stuck the Bad Mind with these horns.

Then the Good Mind put a rock on himself, and then the Bad Mind struck him with these horns until he tore to pieces his own garment. Thus he [the Good Mind] killed him [the Bad Mind].

[THE IMPACTS – The order of directions given here, south, east, north, and west may be ritualistic or may preserve some memory of sequence.]

Then the Good Mind built a fire, as he wanted to burn the Bad Mind up.

Then while the Bad Mind’s heart was in the fire, it burst out, to the South.
The Good Mind went and grabbed it, caught it, and threw it back into the fire again.

Then it [the Bad Mind’s heart] burst from the fire to the East, and
The Good Mind grabbed it, caught it, and threw it back into the fire again.

Then it [the Bad Mind’s heart] burst from the fire to the North, and
The Good Mind grabbed it, caught it, and threw it back into the fire again.

Then it [the Bad Mind’s heart] burst from the fire to the West, and
The Good Mind grabbed it, caught it, and threw it back into the fire again,
this time bursting. It burst under the ground.

“That’s what I want to do with him”, and then the Good Mind stamped on top of the ground.
He jumped up and down on where the Bad Mind’s heart had finally burst.

Then the Good Mind thought of going home.
When he came there close to where they lived [Kokumthena (Grandmother, the Creator), the Good Mind, and the Bad Mind], and then he heard somebody at where they stayed.

He stopped a little while, and then started to go to the place again.
There he met Grandmother [Kokumthena, the Creator], and she told him
“You [the Good Mind] have been naughty”, she said.
“You have BURNT THE SKIN OFF OF HIM [the Bad Mind].”

THE CREATION OF PEOPLE

Then the Good Mind felt bad, and he started to go about feeling very bad.
Then he went to the Buffalo Lick, and there he sat down.

[After this the Good Mind created the first man and woman at the Buffalo Lick.
This Buffalo Lick may be identified with Big (Salt) Lick, just to the south of the modern city of Cincinatti, Ohio, as the active flint quarries show this area to have been occupied by the survivors after the Holocene Start Impacts.]

ANOTHER SOUTH EAST TRADITION

The following is usually understood as an explanation for the fossils found at Big Bone Lick, but Jefferson’s telling of the (Lenapewak) (Delaware)tradition from “Notes on the State of Virginia” holds somehing more:

“Our quadrupeds have been mostly described by Linnaeus and Mons. de Buffon. Of these the Mammoth, or big buffalo, as called by the Indians, must certainly have been the largest. Their tradition is, that he was carnivorous, and still exists in the northern parts of America.

“A delegation of warriors from the Delaware tribe having visited the governor of Virginia, during the present revolution, on matters of business, after these had been discussed and settled in council, the governor asked them some questions relative to their country, and, among others, what they knew or had heard of the animal whose bones were found at the Saltlicks, on the Ohio. Their chief speaker immediately put himself into an attitude of oratory, and with a pomp suited to what he conceived the elevation of his subject, informed him that it was a tradition handed down from their fathers,

`That in antient times a herd of these tremendous animals came to the Big-bone licks, and began an universal destruction of the bear, deer, elks, buffaloes, and other animals, which had been created for the use of the Indians: that the Great Man above, looking down and seeing this, was so enraged that he seized his lightning, descended on the earth, seated himself on a neighbouring mountain, on a rock, of which his seat and the print of his feet are still to be seen, and hurled his bolts among them till the whole were slaughtered, except the big bull, who presenting his forehead to the shafts, shook them off as they fell; but missing one at length, it wounded him in the side; whereon, springing round, he bounded over the Ohio, over the Wabash, the Illinois, and finally over the great lakes, where he is living at this day.’

To this account Jefferson added further information supporting speculation that the mammoth was still alive.

As the Lenapewak were on the west coast of Canada at the time of the Holocene start impacts, they most likely inherited this tradition from the Shawnee. Besides the existing distinct holocene start account of the Lenepwak, the following leads me to suspect borrowing or adoption of the information given to Jefferson. It was noted by Adrienne Mayor:

http://members.aol.com/afmayor/myhomepage/writing.html

and her book is advertised there. If I had a copy of it then I would have the originals of her extracts:

“In 1762, John Wright of Kentucky talked with several Shawnee about big skeletons found along the Ohio River. The Shawnee said the bones belonged to an immense animal, the “grandfather of all buffalo,” and that they had been hunted by “great men” of the distant past. But after all those supermen died out, THE GREAT SPIRIT DESTROYED THE ENORMOUS ANIMALS WITH LIGHTNING so that they wouldn’t harm smaller men of the present day.

“The Delaware elders told Thomas Jefferson a similar story, only they claimed that the gigantic animals were driving away smaller game, like deer and bear. This angered their god, WHO BLASTED THE MASSIVE ANIMALS WITH LIGHTNING BOLTS. Only their petrified remains could be seen today, although it was possible that some had escaped to the far north. Jefferson hoped that Lewis and Clark would discover living specimens of the fossil mammoths so abundant along the Ohio River.

A LAKOTA TRADITION

I want to add here to the traditions passed on above this Lakota tradition as recovered by Firestone’s team:

BATTLE WITH THE GIANT ANIMALS

“In the world before this one, the People and the animals turned to evil and forgot their connection to the Creator. Resolving to destroy the world and start over, Creator warned a few good People to flee to the highest mountaintops. After they were safe, He sang the Song of Destruction and sent down fierce Thunderbirds to wage a great battle against the other humans and the giant animals.

They fought for a long time because the evil men and the animals had become very powerful, and neither side could gain an advantage. Finally, at the height of the battle, the Thunderbirds suddenly threw down their most powerful thunderbolts all at once. The fiery blast shook the entire world, toppling mountain ranges, and setting forests and prairies ablaze. Searing flames leapt up to the sky in all directions, sparing only the few People on the highest peaks. It was so hot that the world’s lakes boiled and dried up before their eyes. Even the rocks glowed red-hot, and the giant animals and evil people burned up where they stood.

After the Earth finished baking, Creator began to make a new world, and as He chanted the Song of Creation, it began to rain. He sang louder and it rained harder until the rivers overflowed their banks and surged across the baked landscape. Finally, He stamped the Earth and with a great quake the Earth split open, sending great torrents of water surging across the entire world, until only a few mountain peaks stood above the flood, sheltering the few huddled People who had survived. After the waters cleansed the Earth and subsided, Creator sent the surviving People out to populate the new world, our world today, but He warned them not to fall into evil, or He would destroy the world again. As the People went out over the land, they found the bleached bones of the giant animals buried in rock and mud all over the world. People still find them today in the Dakota Badlands. (Retold from Erdoes, 1984.)”

The mention of the mountain peaks where these people survived are likely to be the Pacific ranges, IMO, as demonstrated by the mt A DNA haplogroup finds there. The “bleached bones buried in rock” is likely to have been a later explanation for later fossils finds, somewhat similar to the late materials about Big Bone Lick also passed on above.

E.P. GRONDINE
MAN AND IMPACT IN THE AMERICAS

  • Yes, every day becomes more probable that the planet Earth has been bombed by meteoroids, more than previously thought in recent times. These impact craters should be spread everywhere. Many of these astroblems should becoming palaeolagoons.

    http://sites.google.com/site/cosmopier/impact-craters/holocene-palaeolagoons
    tanks
    Pierson

  • Pingback: Waking Up on Turtle Island: “The Horned Serpent vs The Feathered Serpent” « Indigenous People’s Literature Weblog()

  • L M FURO

    A CONSTANT REFERENCE SINCE E. P. HANDED IT TO ME !

  • phateapamEbek

    I am a newbie here! I would like to champ history on off-the-wall friends, bugbear the coop with young ideas and learn more knowledge. During you staunchness all passably me here!

  • Hermann Burchard

    There are a lot of legends among Inuit from the Canadian Arctic. Some others perhaps told by Farley Mowat. But the Inuit came long after YDr. Site probably not relevant for Tusk concerns: http://www.taloyoaknunavut.ca/

    The Inuit now live in houses supplied by Gov of Canada, food flown in, but earlier survived Arctic cold using ingenious tech: High speed transport (dog sled). After going fishing, they could freeze the fish and use as sled runners. Multi-flame seal oil burners kept Igloo cozy. Kayak for hi-tech seal hunting with harpoons.

  • cevin quitoriano

    Hello
    I have just found this site and have spent the last couple of days pouring over the papers and commentary,
    fascinating stuff indeed.
    As to Native American folk tales bearing witness to the YDB events, the native people of Central California have tales that tell of this catastrophic event, even though they were not eye witnesses, their tales tell of what transpired afterwards.

    From the northern Miwok story,
    “How Sah’-Te set the World on Fire”

    ” He then took his yah’-tse [the stick the people used to wear crossways in a twist of their back hair] and stood it up in the fire, and oo’-loop the flame climbed it and stood on the top.
    He then took the yah’-tse with the flame at one end and said he would find out who stole his shell money. First he pointed it to the north, but nothing happened; then to the west, and nothing happened; then east; then up; then down, and still nothing happened. Then he pointed it south toward Tu’-le-yo’-me and the flame leaped from the stick and spread swiftly down the east side of Lower Lake, burning the grass and brush and making a great smoke.

    In the evening Wek’-wek came out of the roundhouse at Tu’-le-yo’-me and saw the country to the north on fire. He went in and told his grandfather that something was burning on Clear Lake.

    Ol’-le the Coyote-man answered, “That’s nothing; the people up there are burning tules.”

    Ol’-le knew what Wek’-wek had done, and knew that Sah’-te had sent the fire, for Ol’-le was a magician and knew everything, but he did not tell Wek’-wek that he knew.

    After a while Wek’-wek came out again and looked at the fire and saw that it was much nearer and was coming on swiftly. He was afraid, and went back and told his grandfather that the fire was too near and too hot and would soon reach them. After a little he went out again and came back and said, “Grandfather the fire is coming fast; it is on this side of the lake and is awfully hot.”
    Ol’-le answered, “That’s nothing; the people at Lower Lake are burning tules.”
    But now the roar and heat of the fire were terrible, even inside the roundhouse, and Wek’-wek thought they would soon burn. He was so badly frightened that he told his grandfather what he had done. He said, “Grandfather, I stole Sah’-te’s hoo’-yah and put it in the creek, and now I’m afraid we shall burn.”

    Then Ol’-le took a sack and came out of the roundhouse and struck the sack against an oak tree, and fog came out. He struck the tree several times and each time more fog came out and spread around.

    Then he went back in the house and got another sack and beat the tree, and more fog came, and then rain. He said to Wek’-wek, “It is going to rain for ten days and ten nights.” And it did rain, and the rain covered the whole country till all the land and all the hills and all the mountains were under water–everything except the top of Oo-de’-pow-we (Mount Konokti, on the west side of Clear Lake) which was so high that its top stuck out a little.

    There was no place for Wek’-wek to go and he flew about in the rain till he was all tired out. Finally he found the top of Oo-de’-pow-we and sat down on it and stayed there.

    On the tenth day the rain stopped, and after that the water began to go down and each day the mountain stood up higher.
    Wek’-wek stayed on the mountain about a week,by which time the
    water had gone down and the and was bare again.”

    And another by the people of yosemite, this passage is from
    LEGEND OF TO-TAU-KON-NU’-LA AND TIS-SA’-ACK

    ‘ And she tarried there and taught the women of Ah-wah-nee how to make the beautiful baskets which they still make at the present day; and To-tau-kon-nu’-la visited her daily, and became charmed with her loveliness, and wanted her to remain and be his wife, but she denied him, saying, “I must return to my people,” and, when he still persisted, she left her o’-chum in the night, and was never seen again. And the love-stricken chieftain forgot his people, and went in search of her, and they waited many moons for his return and mourned his long absence, but they never saw him more.
    This was’ the beginning of a series of calamities which nearly destroyed the great tribe of Ah-wah-nee’-chees. First a great drouth prevailed, and the crops failed, and the streams of water dried up. The deer went wild and wandered away. Then a dark cloud of smoke arose in the East and obscured the sun, so that it gave no heat, and many of the people perished from cold and hunger. Then the earth shook terribly and groaned with great pain, and enormous rocks fell from the walls around Ah-wah’-nee. The great dome called Tis-sa’-ack was burst asunder, and half of it fell into the Valley. A fire burst out of the earth in the East, and the ca’-lah (snow) on the sky mountains was changed to water, which flowed down and formed the Lake Ah-wei’-yah. 1 And all the streams were filled to overflowing, and still the waters rose, and there was a great flood, so that a large part of the Valley became a lake, and many persons were drowned.
    After a time the Great Spirit took pity on his children, and the dark cloud of smoke disappeared, the sun warmed the Valley again into new life, and the few people who were left had plenty of food once more.’
    These can stories can be found at
    http://www.sacred-texts.com/nam/ca/index.htm

    With sites dated to 15k ypb here in the central valley people were certainly here at the right time.

  • chicken little

    Yohl Ikʻnal [johl ikʼnal], Ix Yohl Ikʻnal or Ol Ikʻnal (ruled December 21, 583 – November 7, 604) was a female ruler of the Mayan city of Palenque,

    so this probably Olle from south of there who ancestors were from the north of everywhere. looks like I owe mayans an apology.. at least some of them came from north Eastern north America.
    look like we should never Bet against eye witnesses and their stories. because chances are……… they know what they are talking about it seems.. dang I keep learning that lesson the hard way !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Mr ED it seems Olle , and Yohl ik nal, OLLiK / ALLEG , Ollie’s who are all over north america very existence proves you know even less than I do .. and that you don’t have any clue about anything in North America’s history and that you been making up history just like they have been ! it would be wise for you and me to never again call anyones ancestors liars, NEVER again!! and yes I know now I must to go apologize to some mayans!!!

    ps George you ……….. , you can erase this , but please wait until Mr Ed sees it!!