The Carolina Bays: George Howard’s Original 1997 Web Essay

February 2013 Prologue

Long on the list of “To-Dos” here at the Tusk is the republication and reposting of the 1997 essay that got me into this mess. I have been particularly haunted in recent years as I ditched the eponymous site for social media (2008) and blogging (2010). The code from my old website deteriorated relative to modern browsers, leaving the HTML formatting a shambles for many visitors. Add to that my old web authoring tool, FrontPage, is a dinosaur which I no longer maintain on modern computers — and I have lost the log-in info. How embarrassing.

So, here at the Tusk, readers have never had opportunity to read the interesting original text, which I have rectified below by reposting. My approach to the re-post is to leave the words original — not one is changed — but update where necessary the links and exhibits with modern information, and provide some footnotes with updated commentary. This is an extended project rather than a blog post, so expect to see this page evolve and hopefully become more visually appealing.

Finally, the Carolina bays continue to mystify me. In fact, the wonderful work of Michael Davias at has somehow managed to simultaneously increase my understanding of their nature AND my consternation regarding the mechanics of their formation. LiDAR has revealed many things not evident in 1997, such as bays in Midwest and extraordinary configurations not possibly formed by wind and water. Allen West, David Kimbell and I collected extraordinary evidence in middle of the last decade which has been brushed-off without any attempt at replication.

Despite all this intellectual activity, the only thing has remained certain for me is that all these extraordinary features were formed at once and evolved only slightly. Further more, more bays than not in my experience and study have never been “lakes” of any kind. We proved that here. UCSB studied the sediments extensively and there was no indication the soil ever hosted a lacustrine environment.

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.



The Carolina Bays

George Howard, 1997

North Carolina naturalist John Lawson stripped naked with his party in 1709 to cross a swamp he then called a “Thick Percoarson” (Lawson, A New Voyage to Carolina). It may be that Lawson was struggling through what today we call a Carolina Bay. Since Lawson’s time, generations of observers have been frustrated and fascinated by the low, wet pocks in the ground scattered from Delaware to Florida. These shallow, oriented, depressions — some filled with water and many named as lakes, most in a vegetated wetland state — are unlike any other natural feature of the American landscape. Subtle when seen from the ground, dramatic unmistakable ellipses when viewed from the air, Carolina Bays define the front yard of America.

Yet, the process which created these wonderful features of our environment remains an open question. This paper will investigate the nature of the Carolina Bays, the obscure debate regarding their origin, and reveal new information that demands further study by the scientific community.

Carolina Bays (so named for the profusion of Bay trees they support) are first distinctive because of their uniform nature. Unlike virtually any other bodies of water or changes in elevation (Kaczorowski), these topographical features follow a reliable and unmistakable pattern. Carolina Bays are circular, typically stretched, elliptical depressions in the ground, oriented along their long axis from the Northwest to the Southeast. As seen below, they are further characterized by an elevated rim of fine sand surrounding the perimeter which defines a unique interior ecosystem.

Though uniform in the broad sense, the Bays are dramatically different in the particulars of their measurements and hydrology. The length of Bays ranges from Lake Waccamaw, N.C., at 7 miles, to depressions only 200 feet long, with a median length of approximately 1/4 mile. The depth of Bays ranges from 0 to 23 feet below the elevation of the surrounding terrain. (Kaczorowski). Eyton and Parkhurst detail additional characteristics of Carolina Bays below:

1. The Carolina Bays are ellipses and tend to become more elliptical with increasing size. Many bays, however, lack true bilateral symmetry along either the major or minor axis. The southeast portion of many bays is more pointed than the northwest end and the northeast side bulges slightly more than the southwest side. Known major axis dimensions vary from approximately 200 feet to 7 miles.

2. The Carolina Bays display a marked alignment with northwest-southeast being the preferred orientation. Although there are minor local fluctuations, deviations from the preferred orientation appear to be systematic by latitude (Prouty, 1952).

3. The bays are shallow depressions below the general topographic surface with a maximum depth of about 50 feet. Large bays tend to be deeper than small bays, but the deepest portion of any bay is offset to the southeast from the bay center.

4. Many bays have elevated sandy rims with maximum development to the southeast. Both single and multiple rims occur, and the inner ridge of a multiple rim is less well developed than the outer rim. Rim heights vary from 0 to 23 feet.

5. Carolina Bays frequently overlap other bays without destroying the morphology of either depression. One or more small bays can be completely contained in a larger bay.

6. Some bays contain lakes, some are boggy, others are either naturally or artificially drained and are farmed, and still others are naturally dry.

7. The stratigraphy beneath the bays is not distorted (Preston and Brown, 1964; Thom, 1970).

8. Bays occur only in unconsolidated sediments. Bays in South Carolina are found on relict marine barrier beaches associated with Pleistocene sea level fluctuations, in dune fields, on stream terraces and sandy portions of backbarrier flats (Thom, 1970). No bays occur on modern river flood plains and beaches. Bays exist on marine terraces as much as 150 feet above sea level in South Carolina but also occur on discontinuous veneers of fluvial gravels on the Piedmont in Virginia (Goodwin and Johnson, 1970).

9. Carolina Bays appear to be equally preserved on terraces of different ages and formational processes.

10. Bays occur in linear arrays, in complex clusters of as many as fourteen bays, as scattered individuals, and in parallel groups aligned along the minor axes 11. Bays are either filled or partly filled with both organic and inorganic materials. The basal unit in some bays is a silt believed to represent loess deposited in water.

12. No new bays appear to be forming although Thom (1970) and Frey (1954) cite evidence for recent enlargement of existing Carolina Bays. Price (1968) states that most bays appear to be getting smaller by infilling.

13. Bays are underlain by carbonate, clastic and crystalline bedrock overlain by variable thicknesses of unconsolidated sediments in which the bays are found.

14. Ghosts of semi-obliterated Carolina Bays appear to represent former bays which were filled after formation by terrestrial sediments and organic materials.

5. Small bays deviate further from the mean orientation per region than large bays do.

16. No variation in the heavy mineral suite was found along a traverse of the major axis of one South Carolina bay, even though samples were taken from the bay floor, bay rim and the adjacent non-bay terrace (Preston and Brown, 1964).

The range and number of Carolina Bays are a significant (if crudely catalogued) factor in their description. Bays are identified along the entire range of the Mid-Atlantic Seaboard, from New Jerseto Florida, and increase in frequency to a highest concentration along the border of North and South Carolina.

Figure 2. The average of the “Long Axis” of multitudes of individual Carolina Bays all converge in certain locations

Figure 3. William Prouty’s famous map of the range and elevation of bays on the geological terraces of the Atlantic Coastal Plain

Estimates of the total number of Bays within this range are from 500,000, to 2.5 million (if faint so-called “ghost” features are included.) Along the highest area of concentration, single counties are pocked with thousands upon thousands of Carolina Bays. Dr. Tom Ross of Pembroke State University is in the process of counting the Bays in Robeson County from Soil and Conservation Service soil maps. Ross’s efforts, though still underway, have thus far yielded over 8,800 bays in Robeson County alone. (PC Tom Ross.)

Geomorphic Origin

The precise geomorphologic process responsible for creating these extraordinary features has long been debated, and more than a dozen theories of origin are commonly cited in the Carolina Bay literature:

* marine theories include sand bar dams across drowned valleys (Glenn, 1895);

*swales in underwater sand dunes (Glenn, 1895);

*submarine scour by eddies, currents and undertow (Melton, 1934); 

*progressive lagoon segmentation (Cooke, 1934);

*gyroscopic eddies (Cooke, 1940; 1954); 

*fish nests created by the simultaneous waving of fish fins in unison over submarine artesian springs (Grant, 1945).

*subaerial hypotheses include artesian spring sapping (Toumey, 1848);

*peat burning by paleo-Indians (Wells and Boyce, 1953);

*eolian deflation and/or deposition (Raisz, 1934; Price, 1951, 1958, 1968; and Carson and Hussey, 1962);

*solution (Johnson, 1936; Lobeck, 1939; Le Grand, 1953; and Shockley and others, 1956);

*periglacial thaw lakes (Wolfe, 1953);

*wind deflation combined with perched water tables and lake shore erosion at a 90o angle to the prevailing wind (Thom, 1970);

*artesian spring sapping and eolian deposition (Johnson, 1936);

*and progressive lagoon segmentation modified by eolian processes stabilized by climatic changes (Price, 1951, 1958, 1968)

In general, however, the debate is properly divided into two camps: those who propose a number of terrestrial mechanisms operating together to form the Bays, and others who conclude that a single encounter with a space borne object best accounts for their unusual characteristics. The fifty odd year exchange between these two groups reveals a fundamental division of geological science and, indeed, other earth and human historical sciences. The question at hand is an old one: Are all earth’s features and geological phenomena best explained by slow mechanisms, identifiable today and operating over long periods of time — or is it reasonable to include dramatic, if seemingly rare, catastrophic events as punctuating factors in earth’s evolution? The search for the origin of the Carolina Bays is heavily, and negatively, influenced by this wider dispute.

The Debate Begins

The scientific dispute concerning the origin of Carolina Bays debate began ironically with the arrival of seemingly unrelated science, aerial photography.

In the 1930’s, county by county aerial photographs were mandated by the Roosevelt Administration as part of the government’s effort to provide stability and assistance to farmers in the Depression. (Savage p.21) When first examined, these photographs revealed to astonished Southern farmers and scientists alike an incredible array of elliptical, repeating patterns in the previously familiar landscape. It is easy to imagine the wonder expressed by the locals at the sight of the magnitude and symmetry of the Carolina Bays viewed from aerial photographs. These were structures that for generations had been regarded only as a peculiar nuisance. Many observers were quick to conclude that the depressions were obviously remnant scars from a collision of a number of bodies with Earth (Savage p. 21).


 Figure 4. The image above kicked off the Carolina Bay debate in 1933.

An article from popular Harpers Weekly was typical of press reports that fired the nation’s imagination:


“The comet plunged down with a hiss that shook the mountains, with a crackle that opened the sky. Beneath the down plunging piston of star, compressed air gathered. Its might equaled and then exceeded that of the great star itself. It burst the comet nucleus. It pushed outward a scorching wind that must have shoved the waters upon the European shores, and on land leveled three hundred foot pines, spreading them radially outward like matches in a box. The comet struck, sending debris skyward, curtaining the east, darkening the west. Writhing clouds of steam swirled with writhing clouds of earth. For ten minutes there was a continuous bombardment, and the earth heaved and shook. For 500 miles around the focal spot of 190,000 square miles, the furnace snuffed out every form of life.”

The Comet That Hit The Carolinas” Edna Muldrow, Harpers Monthy, 1933 

This conclusion is fantastic even today. In the 1930’s it was more striking. At the time, scientists were only beginning to come to grips with earth craters and impact evidence. Many geologists of the day were still taught that Meteor Crater in the Arizona desert was the only extant evidence, world-wide, of a large collision ever having taken place. Today, more than 300 craters are cataloged with additional features being regularly discovered.

The Search

Frank A. Melton and William Schriever of the University of Oklahoma were the first to mount an effort to locate conclusive evidence of multiple impacts in the Carolinas. Like William Prouty (the former Chair UNC Department of Geology and life long supporter and contributor to the “extraterrestrial” theory) their research was inconclusive.

Field surveys were notable for their failure to locate any meteoritic material, or other features traditionally associated with meteor strikes (Ray Kaczorowski, 1977, Carolina Bays: A Comparison with Modern Oriented Lakes, p 25-35). The researchers, however, should not be faulted for their lack of determination. Hundreds of Bays were examined in difficult field conditions (Savage) and included detailed magnetometer surveys suggesting buried material in certain locations, but failing to locate samples or produce consistent results .

Obviously, the early extraterrestrial researchers had a problem on their hands. Though the Bays strongly suggested a causal link to energy directed from above, the science of the day demanded that at least some hard evidence of “rocks from space” be produced in order for their hypothesis to be accepted as conclusive. This evidence was never produced.

Though early reports of the Bays had caused excitement among the public, which readily accepted the strike hypothesis, other scientists joined to oppose the idea that Bays were anything more than atypical kaarst features, subject to and resulting from commonly recognized aeolian and solution processes (essentially unusual lakes formed by a combination of wind, water and waves.)

Chief among the critics of the collision theory was Douglas A. Johnson, who proposed his own hypothesis which Savage terms the “artesian-solution-lacustrine-aeolian” process. (Savage p. 53) Johnson envisioned a vast series of artesian springs from which water flowed after traveling under great pressure underground from the mountains to the coastal plain. These springs, according to Johnson, would have eroded the marl and unconsolidated sediments through which they flowed. The resulting pool of surface water would, as a result, appear steadily more elongated to the ground observer in response to the migrating source. Johnson then theorized a steady and consistent wind from the Northwest which would further “scallop out” the water body, creating the oriented, elliptical depressions we see today.

Johnson’s theory, or variations of it, is still accepted today by most of the scientific community. It was particularly bolstered by what appears to be the last serious investigation of Bay origin, led in 1977 by Ray Kaczorowski. In his NASA funded report, “The Carolina Bays: A Comparison with Modern Oriented Lakes,” Kaczorowski sought to debunk the impactual theory by providing the missing piece of the puzzle: Where in the world are analogous features which exhibit similar characteristics and exist under currently operating geomorphologic influences?

Kaczorowski found his similar features in three far flung corners of the Western Hemisphere: East Texas, Chile and the North Slope of Alaska. In each of these regions the researcher and his graduate assistants personally examined wind oriented lakes he postulated were Bays “in the making.” Indeed, after returning home to Columbia, he rented a wind machine and proceeded to blow pools of water in a sandbox into faintly “Bay-like” shapes.

This study seems to have concluded the long and difficult dispute over the origin of Carolina Bays. Kaczorowski provided the proponents of terrestrial causation with similar features of supposedly similar formation, while the other camp was justifiably exhausted and weakened after years of derision for their failure to have located hard evidence, or even precisely describe the nature of the event which the Bays had intuitively suggested.

Contrary Evidence

Others, however, were never as convinced as the general scientific and academic community that the wind theories of Johnson and Kaczorowski had adequately described the geomorphology of Carolina Bays. Henry Savage, in a carefully argued treatise befitting his occupation as a trial lawyer, banker, mayor and gentleman naturalist, found very little new in Kaczorowski’s “evidence” of similar processes forming Bays around the world. His chief objection to Kaczorowski’s conclusions called into question the researchers claim that other areas are truly analogous to Carolina Bays. In his book, The Mysterious Carolina Bays, he skillfully challenges the reliability of Kaczorowski:

“That Kaczorowski, the current leader of the wind theorists, found it necessary to journey all but literally to the ends of the earth to view features on harsh landscapes in fierce climes that only faintly resemble Carolina Bays speaks for the uniqueness of the Carolina Bay phenomena, particularly when the striking images brought back from those places are contrasted with Carolina Bays. Even more pertinent questions confronting the wind origin theorists are nearer at hand. How, for example can they account for regional winds being so much more emphatic in their earth sculpturing activities in the border region of the Carolinas than elsewhere in the region? How can they with credibility attribute to winds, notoriously symbolic of instability and vagaries, the creation of beautifully sculptured, almost perfectly elliptical overlapping Bays without semblance of distortion of either? If they are familiar with the tenacity of the root bound earth of Southern ponds, how can they reasonable espouse a wind genesis of the Bays in the face of the knowledge imparted to us by those pollen studies of the paleobotanists.”


Savage’s points are good ones. It is difficult to understand how the study of Bay origin should suddenly cease, as it did, simply because someone had catalogued faintly similar features, formed in a context which is provably different. Various studies indicate that the environment at the time of Bay formation, broadly 10,000 to 20,000 years BP, hardly resembled the treeless windswept plains of the locales visited by Kaczorowski. (The Age and Trophic History of Lake Waccamaw, North Carolina, J. C. STAGER and L. B. CAHOON Department of Biological Sciences, University of North Carolina at Wilmington, Kobres PC.) Kaczorowski also failed to address numerous additional features unique to Carolina Bays, such as Bays within Bays, and Bays intersecting other Bays.

Fortunately, the search for the origin of Carolina Bays was not completely abandoned following Kaczorowski’s flawed study and Savage’s careful critique.

Robert Kobres, an independent researcher in Athens, Georgia, has studied Carolina Bays for nearly 20 years in conjunction with his larger interest in impact threats from space. His recent, self-published, investigations have profound consequences for Carolina Bay study and demand research by academia as serious, relevant and previously unexamined new information. The essence of Kobres’ theory is that the search for “debris,” and the comparison of Bays with “traditional” impact craters, falsely and naively assumes that circular craters with extraterrestrial material in them are the only terrestrial evidence of past encounters with objects entering earth’s atmosphere.

The last twenty years have seen an explosion of evidence that earth has often encountered objects that profoundly alter our environment (Lewis, Rain of Iron and Ice ). For instance, it is now commonly accepted that an impact with a large object in the Gulf of Mexico caused the extinction of large dinosaurs — a theory considered bizarre and irresponsible at the time Kaczorowski studied the Bays.

Kobres goes a logical step further by assuming that forces associated with incoming bodies, principally intense heat, should also leave visible signatures on the earth. And, finally, that physics does not demand that a “collision” of the bodies need necessarily occur to produce enormous change on earth.

To verify that such encounters are possible outside of the physics lab, we need look no further than the so-called “Tunguska event.” On June 30, 1908, in the vicinity of the Tunguska River deep in Siberia, a tremendous explosion instantly leveled 2000 sq. km. of tundra, felling trees by the millions, all left pointing outward from a central area. News accounts of the day told of Londoners being able to read newspapers from the glow of the night sky for days afterward, and seismographs worldwide recording an apparent cataclysm in Siberia. Unfortunately (or fortunately as the case may be) the explosion had occurred in an area so remote, and during a time of such political turmoil, that no researcher pinpointed or even managed to travel to the suspected impact site for more than two decades.

Not until pioneer Russian meteoritic researcher Leonard Kulik managed to gain entry to the inhospitable area in 1927, did anyone but local tribesmen view the devastation and its peculiar nature.

(At the epicenter of the explosion lay not a large crater with a “rock” in it, as might be expected, but nothing more than a number of “neat oval bogs.” The Tunguska literature generally mentions the bogs only in passing, since Kulik failed in digs there to locate any evidence of a meteorite and went on to examine other aspects of the explosion. Perhaps ironically, Melton and Schriver, around the same time and on the opposite side of the world, were fruitlessly searching their own “neat, oval bogs” for evidence of a meteor, neither apparently having the knowledge of Kulik’s efforts, or vice versa.)

It is generally accepted today that the Tunguska event can only be attributed to a rare encounter with a “comet,” or incoming body of such a nature that it left no stony or ferrous material, but simply vaporized and scorched the earth below in a rare display of high energy physics.

To explain the Bays, Kobres proposes a similar encounter, albeit of larger proportions and more accurately described as a “near miss.” The “Kobres Event” proposes that a “comet,” if you like, whipped past the Earth, exchanging enormous energy but not impacting directly to form a typical crater. It is demonstrable that such an encounter would show an intense flash of heat onto the ground below. This heat would have caused moister portions in the Pleistocene landscape to explode into steam, leaving the depressions in the ground that we know today as “Carolina Bays.”

Kulik’s “neat, oval bogs” in Siberian Russia, are then, to Kobres, logical analogies to the Carolina Bays: the result of intense heat causing the summer melt ponds of the area to explode and leave signature elliptical depressions.

Map view of blast zone from 3-D simulation of a 15 megaton explosion. Axes are labeled in centimeters, and colors indicate wind speed. Expanding oblong shape is the blast wave moving along the surface, blowing down trees with wind speeds decreasing from high hurricane force of 60 m/s (magenta) to below 20 m/s (yellow). Blast-furnace conditions are sustained downrange (left) of the origin where the fireball contacted the surface. This did not happen at Tunguska, so the asteroid must have been smaller (less energetic).

Smoking Guns

Kobres’ conclusion would be just another addition to the long list of formation theories had he not uncovered a previously unexamined analogy to the Carolina Bays. Completely absent from the controversy prior to his study is any comparison of so-called “maar” features with “Carolina Bays ”

Found all over the world in volcanic areas, maar features are relatively well understood. Geologists consider them the result of a sudden encounter between moist ground and up-welling volcanic heat. In their particulars, Maar features resemble Carolina Bays more neatly than any lakes proposed by Kaczorowski.

“Maars” come in groups, some seeming to orient themselves in relation to others, with many (presumably more recent) Maars exhibiting the “rims” previously unique to Bays.

(The Cerro Colorado volcano, a maar feature in the Pinacate Volcanic Field of northern Mexico, presents this author with the clearest “cousin” to a typical Carolina Bay.)

Assuming the lack of any geologically recent volcanic activity on the North American Atlantic Coastal Plain, Kobres believes Maar features to have an analogous, not identical, nature to Carolina Bays. In this formulation, the “Bays” and the “Maars” are both signatures of powerful steam explosions, with the heat having come from different sources.

Put another way, Kobres believes Bays should be considered “top-induced” maars, formed by heat from above, as opposed to “true” Maars, which have volcanic and subterranean origins.


Beaver and Bays

Another line of Kobres’ investigation is enlightening, particularly to those puzzled by the seeming “arrangement” of Bays within inter-stream divides.

Large beavers, he supposes, created pools of water that efficiently collected radiant energy from the sky and suddenly exploded into super-heated steam.

The arrangement of Bays in many instances resembles the documented relation of beaver ponds to one another. If such an arrangement of large shallow ponds were visited by a sudden and scorching heat from above, one might conclude that the resulting explosions would leave relatively arranged “craters.”

As incredible as this may seem, at first, no portion of this theory is impossible or even improbable. Like mammoth, large saber toothed cats, giant ground sloth and other now extinct Pleistocene mammals, giant beaver were residents of the Bay area in relatively recent times. Skeletons and remains of these enormous beasts are found all over the world, many dating to around the time of Bay formation, which generally coincides with the sudden global climatic transition from the Pleistocene to the Holocene age around 12,000 years ago.

Scientists have long puzzled over the apparent climate shift at this time (Younger Dryas). A relatively mild world of large mammals and abundant resources turned suddenly to a harsh clime as cold as the coldest times of the last Ice Age. The suddenness is most strikingly suggested by the frozen mammoth unearthed in Russia through the years. Some with flowering vegetative remains still in their stomachs.

It is not difficult to conclude in fact that Kobres’ may have defined evidence of the event marking the dawn of the modern climatic age — and the subsequent rise of agricultural man, who had to work harder than his Pleistocene ancestors to ensure a living.


Other Evidence


Additional support for such a hypothesis is available from other reliable sources. I have culled from extensive readings of North Carolina’s natural history, what could well be eyewitness accounts of the event itself.


Allow me to pass along the following accounts of legends passed down among Native Americans concerning the origin of the Bay lakes on whose shores they long lived:


Of Lake Mattamuskeet:


“…..kneeling at a sacrificial alter, she prayed to the Great Spirit to save the brave and her perishing people. After her invocation, a star fell to the earth, and rain soon followed. Days and days of rain quenched the fire. Great holes burned in the earth by the fire were filled, forming a great inland sea.” (Algonquin Indian legend, Touring the Backroads of North Carolina’s Upper Coast, p.268)


Of Lake Waccamaw:


“The local Indians are known as the “People of the Falling Star,” and they believed the lake was created by a falling star, perhaps a great meteorite.” (Waccamaw-Siouan Indian legend, Wild Shores, Exploring the Wilderness Areas of Eastern North Carolina. p.150)


It is perfectly reasonable to conclude that if such a cataclysm occurred during a known time of known human habitation on the North American Atlantic Coastal Plain (approximately 10,000 -15,000 BP) legends would be told to relate the horror to future generations.

Kobres and a growing number of other researchers have assembled a variety of accounts from around the globe describing tremendous cataclysms directed from above.

From Chinese silks, to petroglyphs and the Holy Bible, hundreds of legends and holy scripts are easily interpreted as descriptive of comets and their sometimes awful consequences for the environment and humanity. The Carolina Bay event may well have only been one of many significant “impacts,” though surely, due to its magnitude, it was the most significant in human memory.


Life in the Bays

In recent years, the geomorphologic debate detailed above has taken a back-seat to studies of the biology and natural wonders of Carolina Bays. (Thomas Ross, Comprehensive Carolina Bay bibliography).

In this sphere of study, the Bays are most notable for their “hydrological” characteristics and the diverse biota it supports. Carolina Bays are literally filled with life. Among the water dependent animal species commonly found in natural Bays are:

Great Blue Herons

Ornate Chorus Frog

Pond Cypress

 Spring Pepper

Gopher Frog

Water Beetle

Eastern newt

Tiger Salamander

Mabee’s salamander

Clam Shrimp

Red copepods

Dragonfly Nymph

(North Carolina Wild Places, 1997, North Carolina Wildlife Resources Commission)


Carolina Bays also harbor numerous species adapted both to up and low-land; including white tailed deer, brown bear, bobcats and rattlesnakes. Plant life in the Bays is equally diverse, supporting a number of rare and endangered species, such as Long Leaf Loosestrife and Venus Flytrap .

It is hardly surprising then that the diversity is not limited to the visible world. Researchers at the University of Georgia announced in April, 1997, the discovery of previously unknown bacteria that grow and live in the Bay muck:

“The team determined the DNA sequences of some 35 clones from the Carolina bay samples, which were taken in the mud beneath a shallow layer of water. Of these 35, some 32 were affiliated with five bacterial groups, Proteobacteria (11); Acidobacterium-like bacteria (8); Verrucomicrobium-like bacteria (7); gram-positive bacteria (3) and green nonsulfur bacteria (3).

One sequence did not seem to be associated with any major division. The most interesting fact, however, is that none of the clones exhibited an exact match to any of the 16S rDNA sequences deposited in numerous databases. “This suggests that most of the bacteria in Rainbow Bay are novel species,” said Lawrence Shimkets, one of the Georgia researchers .


Some even go as far as to link theories of extraterrestrial causation with the unique biological features:

 Mac, incidentally, believes that the plant got its name because the seed actually came from Venus. Southeastern North Carolina is dotted with mysterious shallow round craters, most (some ed.) of them water filled called Carolina Bays. Some scientists believe the craters were caused by a meteor. shower long ago, and Mac believes that. “My great, great granddaddy remembers when they fell,” he says. He also believes the seeds of the flytrap, a plant with a spacemonsterish look about, arrived on those meteors by way of Venus.” When asked if there were flys on Venus for the traps to catch, Mac says, “I guess so. No telling what’s there. Nobody ever been there to find out, have they?”

Venus flytraps are found in only one location — worldwide — within 75 miles of Wilmington, North Carolina. This small region coincides neatly with the central axis of Carolina Bay occurrence .

The Good News 

Fortunately, most undisturbed Carolina Bays are protected by one of the nation’s strongest environmental statutes, Section 404 of the Clean Water Act. This Act, and subsequent regulatory interpretations, regulates the disposal into, and alteration of, jurisdictional “Waters of the United States.”

For the purposes of the law, “Waters,” has been interpreted to mean areas which are saturated in the uppermost foot of soil for a portion or all of the growing season (as little as 10 days in North Carolina). Virtually all Carolina Bays meet this criterion, and thus, in their natural vegetated state, are subject to a complex state and federal permitting system.

Federal wetland protection has been an unexpected boon for the conservation, and, particularly, restoration, of Carolina Bays. Because of their vast number and range, Carolina Bays are often unavoidably the subject of agricultural or infrastructure development, particularly highways. This has led to very recent efforts to restore Bays as “wetland mitigation banks.” Wetland banks are a new and novel method of dealing with the conflicting societal needs to both develop and protect or restore certain lands.

Wetland banks sell wetland “credits” to off-set and compensate for unavoidable development in wetlands like Carolina Bays. For example, for each acre destroyed by the Department of Transportation in building or widening a road, a credit can be purchased to “mitigate” the loss as required to receive a permit.

North Carolina’s first privately permitted mitigation bank is a 2200 acre ditched and drained Carolina Bay, the first phase of which will require the restoration of 690 acres from farm back to forest. Over 200,000 trees of 27 different varieties were planted at this site, and over 20 linear miles of ditches now draining the property were backfilled. The restoration, when complete, will produce approximately 220 federally authorized mitigation credits. Carolina Bays are well suited as wetland banks, they are natural “bathtubs” and the water in them can be more reliably controlled without flooding surrounding lands.

This process clearly improves the environment by requiring that 2 or mores acres are restored for every acre lost. It also allows the development of certain Bays when it has been proven to be absolutely necessary and there are no other reasonable options. This new development for Carolina Bays also offers an opportunity to collect a great deal more scientific data on their natural processes.


I have always maintained a strong interest in the unexplained parts of science and history. Most of the subjects I have encountered, however, do not promise an easy solution. In anthropology, there will always be another missing link, or in archaeology, another hole to dig. But in the small corner of research where Carolina Bays reside there seems plenty of reason to believe a definitive solution could be found at little expense.

Biological assays and efforts to conserve Carolina Bays are numerous (and increasing) but no work is underway to re-evaluate their genesis using modern methods and technologies. Geophysical researchers simply abandoned this line of study in the late 1970’s, just before science was armed with some of its best tools. Contrast the last effort to model wind formation theories — Ray Kaczorowski and his 1979 sand-box — with the computational and graphical modeling programs available to today’s university researchers. Or the crude 1950’s ink drawings describing the range and orientation of Carolina Bays — with today’s advanced GIS and space based earth sensing equipment.

I firmly believe a properly equipped and modestly funded, multidisciplinary, modern day graduate lab could, if not solve the the problem outright, clearly dismiss one or the other camps of thought.

Given a confident belief that the answers are indeed out there in the sand, we come then to the true shame of the Carolina Bay story: the willingness of the current geophysical research community to tolerate and admit such a profound “mystery” in their midst. I’ve known respected professional earth scientists to brush off questions about Carolina Bay origin with references to “alien landings” and “giant fish.” With prodding, they generally elicit a thin collage of wind and wave theory faintly recalled from their student years. One gets the distinct feeling that the study of Carolina Bay origin is the “crazy aunt in the attic” of the Coastal Plain researcher. And that visiting his dear relative is hardly worth the disturbing consequences.

Perhaps then it is not a lack of equipment, money, or even interest that relegates this subject to a mystery. The stakes may simply be too high for open-minded research in this field at this time. If it were revealed that these omnipresent features were indeed created suddenly around the time of the most recent extinction and climatic change, the “textbooks” would again need rewriting, and serious preparation and contemplation made for our future protection. It is disturbing to think that today’s scientists, more than two hundreds years after the discovery of Carolina Bays, seem more reluctant than ever to step back and contemplate the whole of their mystery.


“Science … warns me to be careful how I adopt a view which jumps with my preconceptions, and to require stronger evidence for such belief than for one to which I was previously hostile. My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations.”


–Thomas Huxley, 1860




























  • Steve Garcia

    Somehow or other I missed George posting this re-post.

    I am amazed how we can think about a thing for so long (I knew about the CBs long before I ever heard of Ed Grondine or CT), but not as ago as when I first got into the Tunguska thing.

    A speculation:

    But, about the CBs, well, the Chelyabinsk thing has taught me a thing or two, and some of it has me thinking of questions and angles I’d never heard of before, so I thought I’d throw the ideas out and see what stuck (i.e., see what others here think of these thoughts).

    First, I will reiterate the point I’ve made before that sometimes we can’t find the right question to ask, because we don’t know enough about what possibilities exist. So, we ask the wrong questions. Chelyabinsk is allowing me to ask questions I’d never considered.

    Mainly, my thinking hinges on geocentric velocity. Maybe the discussion some of us had about maybe even terminal velocity (about 300 miles/hr – about 480 km/hr) helped my mind go in this direction. But at that time I dindn’t think it was possible for a less than hyper-velocity object to impact Earth. Now I am not so sure. . .

    1. The Columbians assert that Chelyabinsk was an Apollo.

    2. A very good percentage of Apollos are “cometary asteroids” – asteroids with enough characteristics of comets (vs “normal” stony asteroids) – that even if it did come from the Apollos, it still may have been cometary in some way – perhaps in its makeup. [At least 25% have one or more cometary characteristics]

    3. If an NEO approaches from (more or less) behind the Earth in its travels around the Sun, its velocity not counting Earth-acceleration as it approaches is the delta between the two velocities, Earth’s and its own.

    To me, the last two are big deals. Earth is going around at about 30 km/sec, and many of the other things in our vicinity are pretty darned close to that velocity.

    So, with the CBs exhibiting none of the characteristics of hyper-velocity impacts, it occurs to me that they didn’t HAVE to be hyper-velocity impacts – but STILL be primary impacts.

    H-V impacts have round craters. They have shocked materials, blah, blah, blah, that we all know about here.

    Only fairly slow impacts create ellipses. Okay…

    Only non-meteors/asteroids – true iceballs – could impact and leave no “Aha!” rock. Okay…

    Perhaps to get that low velocity we don’t have to interject a “splash” of icy ejecta from an ice sheet to make secondary impacts. Perhaps the object wasn’t going that fast relative to Earth in the first place.

    Perhaps the original idea about the CBs wasn’t far off the mark. Perhaps it was just not stony and not going at hyper-velocity. Perhaps we just need a slower object.

    1 km/sec = 3600 km/hr. 0.5 km/sec = 1800 km/hr. 0.25 km/sec = 900 km/hr.

    What if the object came in at less than 1 km/sec? Could it have? Less than 0.5?

    It’s velocity entering the atmosphere – could it have merely been supersonic?

    It still would have broken up, if it was mostly ice. It may even have sprayed out from its atmospheric entry point.

    What about any rocks? It is possible they could have followed a different trajectory, due to their solidity and density – and density in objects is related to friability.

    Perhaps the ice did melt, to some degree – but not as much as would be assumed with hypervelocity, in which it would have vaporized.

    Upon ground impact, I can visualize the objects – at what I imagine to be about either terminal velocity or not much more – disintegrating without doing much more than “splashing” out of a small, shallow crater. And the craters being not much more than being “pushed” downward and outward a little bit.

    If we get rid of the speed, these effects become more possible. At least it seems to me that way. But high velocity has been assumed for anything coming into Earth’s gravity well. But high intrinsic velocity is not necessarily high geocentric velocity.

    Why the oblate, pear shapes of Davias’ LIDAR study? Does this explain those? First thought: I think that it doesn’t rule them out. it might be some sort of vector addition from their trajectories – some out to the side, and some straight ahead. If their straight-ahead velocity is >> than their sideways velocity, I can see Davias’ geographical pattern doing that, though I don’t have the math to prove it.

    This could also explain why the CBs are oriented to a single area in or near Michigan. Perhaps that was the breakup point (I imagine it could be even at the atmospheric entry point).

    One corollary: If these were only supersonic, there would have been no fireballs. It may have been like bombardment, like artillery coming in. They might even have been whistling or making whizzing sounds. The splashes would have been terrific to watch.

    So, that is what came to mind. It is something I’ve never heard anyone suggest, so I am suggesting it. It may not be in itself correct, but maybe others here can see some valid points and it cold trigger someone else to move toward an answer. That would be cool, too.

  • chicken little

    Perhaps the original idea about the CBs wasn’t far off the mark. Perhaps it was just not stony and not going at hyper-velocity. Perhaps we just need a slower object.

    yep that could mean like the moon ? ;P so yep that big rock that follows us real slow, yep I can go with that !

  • Steve,

    The CBays are sometimes very large, miles across. This is a problem for any primary impactor being the cause, since all of the CBays have very flat bottoms, yet the energy to emplace the rim structures would require such a large impact force as to leave a central depression much deeper, some significant fraction of the scale of the CBay itself, as we see in other impact cratering.

    If an object of such size were to fall any significant distance through the atmosphere, its terminal velocity would be very high, transonic or supersonic at the very least. This is because ballistic coefficient tends more toward bullet (away from feather) in larger objects, unless they are so low density as to not even have enough strength for atmospheric entry to begin with.

    To review, nothing so large to be able to form the larger CBays could fall to Earth ion that process without making a much deeper dent. It would have to be individual grains of sand falling individually.

    And for objects in space with low enough Earth-relative velocity to “come in slow”, they are already captured in the Earth-Moon system to have such a low relative (i.e. Geocentric) velocity. By definition. Stuff that slow doesn’t come from somewhere. Its already here. Below Earth escape velocity means already Earth captured, Earth orbiting.

    Because the CBays are in a continuous layer over many different older Geo formations, they were most likely formed by a single process or event. Lots of sand. Very pure quartz.

    Exceptional lack of terrigenous detritus in the monotonously uniform pure quartz. How could wind and water leave no earthly detritus??? Where did it all come from? Mass transport issues. Formative (uniform for 1000 miles across the surface!) process issues.

    Lack of froth. Formed aloft.


  • Steve Garcia

    TH –

    “And for objects in space with low enough Earth-relative velocity to “come in slow”, they are already captured in the Earth-Moon system to have such a low relative (i.e. Geocentric) velocity.”

    I disagree.

    “Below Earth escape velocity means already Earth captured, Earth orbiting.”

    Earth escape velocity is geocentric. An object going 30 km/sec and not already in the Earth’s gravity well is not only possible, but it exists. Many of them exist. If one behind us is going 31 km/sec and in the same direction why would it not catch up to us and pass us? And if on the proper course, would it not enter our gravity well and thus become captured?

    “Stuff that slow doesn’t come from somewhere.”

    30 km/sec is slow? I disagree. Stuff “that slow” is common in the inner solar system. The closer ones come from wherever NEOs come from. Some are slower than we are going. WE might capture THEM from behind.

  • Steve Garcia

    One of the fallacies of the space age is that everything must come into our atmosphere at hypervelocity speeds. I happen to disagree and don’t understand why this idea has had such a hold on everybody for so long. Yes, the intrinsic velocity of bodies in our inner solar system are in the 20-40 km/sec range, mostly. But intrinsic speed is not relative speed.

    Space shuttles and Apollo and Gemini and Mercury craft, in order to maintain orbit had to be going like 17,000 mph. And they did not have the capacity to carry fuel for any but the most minimal maneuvers, so their re-entry maneuvers were closely calculated, based on fuel available, to just get the craft slow enough not not be burned up.

    But that is not the only possible re-entry. A craft with enough fuel and starting from a high enough orbit could certainly decelerate itself to minimize the heat of re-entry. How slow could that be? We have never dealt with that, because the weight of sufficient braking fuel has always been beyond our capacity to get it up into orbit and still do other things.

    Likewise, we could get to Moon or Mars in 10% of the time – but only if we carried enough fuel to accelerate all the way, instead of coasting 99%+ of the distance, and then decelerate when close. Alternatively, we can accelerate at 1G halfway there and decelerate at 1G the other half. But our thinking on fuel prohibits this. Basically, our rocket technology is in the stone age, because we don’t ask the right questions and have not developed proper technologies.

    So we continually risk burning up our craft and astronauts. Because we don’t want to carry enough fuel to slow down and lower the heat of re-entry. This is a choice we made back in the Permian Age of space exploration, back in the 1950s and 1960s, and we keep on thinking the same way, over and over.

    As to slow descents in the atmosphere, no, you are still thinking like everything is hyper-velocity. Throw that book out and open your mind to other possibilities.

    With incoming bodies, NASA thinks everything acts like meteors – and Chelyabinsk has shown that even meteors do things differently than NASA expected. Comets? Comets come in all sorts of packages, and you saying they are this or that is only your opinion. NASA doesn’t know, and neither do you (or me).

    I am asking questions, and you don’t even answer the questions. You jump in and say you know everything about objects entering Earth’s gravity well. Well, I am glad to have an expert – but we here are pretty certain that the other experts are wrong, so let’s not pretend we know everything and start asking, “What if?”

    How many slow objects coming down have you ever studied?

    How about frogs? How about fishes? How about slow-falling rocks? All in the public history of western civilization. You think those were gullible people who didn’t know what they were looking at? Well, that was and is the attitude of archeologists and geologists an astronomers who say that ancient peoples didn’t see fiery objects hitting the Earth. If you are one of them, why are you here? To pontificate? If so, you could have been the next pontiff. We here think such things were real, and going under that assumption, we are trying to discover what actually happened. Saying, “Nope. Didn’t happen.” What do we gain from that?

    As for me, I am asking basic questions, and I’d appreciate it that if all you have to say is “Rocks don’t fall out of the sky” or the CBs are aeolian, please stay out of my conversations. I am asking if there are people here who can even, a little bit, think outside the box that don’t agree that all things are already known.

    If you know everything, I have no questions for you. I am asking people who know that there is more to learn than what Thomas Harris will allow us to know.

    Thank you.

  • I went to a job interview at SCAD in 2004, where the flight into Charleston on a regional airline was low and slow right over these Carolina Bays. I was astounded by their appearance and spent the whole flight staring out the window. I was even more astonished that no one else seemed to notice them. Ever since I had asked people who might know about these and never got any information until today when I stumbled on this website. Bravo. How did you get that Google Earth with the Bays outlined in white? I ran Google Earth and was not able to duplicate that visual, but I would like to. One would think that if all of them were visible that way, some ideas about the source or direction of them would be forthcoming. Wind and water, oh come on now. Just look at them! I like the idea of a slow (on astronomical basis) object, an air burst and then with multiple impacts of ‘something’ (ice or frozen methane or who knows what) leaving the overlapping structures. Looking makes you imagine things based upon your experiences with impacts into water…

  • George Howard


  • Steve Garcia

    Professor James –

    Hi! Yes, the Carolina bays can capture the imagination, can’t they? You came to the right place. Browse a while and you will eventually find Michael Davias’ work with LIDAR, which REALLY makes the bays stand out.

    Thanks to George, we all keep on learning a LOT, and we keep on learning how little anyone knows about them. Including us, though we keep on trying. As an impact site focused mainly on the Younger Dryas boundary impact event (YDB) at 12,800 ya, the CBs are not always tied to the YDB, but some of us aren’t so sure about the non-link. We all have our opinions, and we get into it with each other once in a while, to the dismay of George…LOL

    George runs a pretty fair-minded blog here. He posts even papers that disagree with our overall point of view, though as any blogger he reserves the right to editorialize – and slaps a few people around in the process, sometimes with humor. But they are welcome to come and slap him back.

    Seriously, you will find that the pro-YDB papers tend to be rife with forensic evidence. That cannot often be said of the anti-YDB papers, which tend to be kibitzing from behind desks. But not always. Forensic evidence – actual measurements of actual samples – is so far all that can be done. Like Luis Alvarez and his KT dinosaur killer, which took over ten years to identify a crater, the YDB so far has no crater. That is the number one failing of YDB proponents – so far. It has only been 6-1/2 years since the first paper on the YDB.

    And CosmicTusk is at the very least a blog that is up to date on developments about the YDB. It has been a contentious run. Some scientists are pretty hard core against the impact hypothesis. It is rare when one of those makes an appearance here, but they are welcome any time.

    We have one occasional commenter here, Jonny, who is an expert on things flying around out there.

    We also have Thomas Harris (Tim), who was a dynamicist at NASA.

    George has gotten his name on a few of the pro-YDB papers, though he modestly minimizes his part in it all.

    Ed Grondine is the author of a book, “Man and Impact in the Americas,” which should someday become a standard in its field. He is working on another book, which I believe is a sequel – but what that is he doesn’t talk about yet. Stay tuned.

    I myself am a mechanical design engineer with a career that includes 7+ years in R&D.

    My apologies to the other participants here, that I can’t recall what their backgrounds are.

    We may not be the scientists who are putting out papers on the YDB, but we believe they are on the right track. Part of that belief is that those near-Earth objects out there are not the only things threatening our planet.

    As to the link with the Carolina bays, right now the date of the CBs appears to not in agreement with the YDB, even though both seem tied to the area of the Great Lakes. Saginaw Bay comes up often enough, thanks in large part to Michael Davias, who keeps on doing his best at conferences to present on the CBs. So far he isn’t getting a lot of takers, but his ideas and work are groundbreaking.

    The dating of the CBs is fraught with large ambiguities. Something about them and their structure seems to make it hard to get a reliable date for them. Dating samples come from various depths of the rims, from the bay bottoms, and from just outside the bays (I think), and the dates vary by about 100,000 years. When the oldest of those is only 130,000 years (stay tuned, though), the variance is well over a factor of two. For something that young, that is the same as throwing darts at a spinning dartboard.

    You are correct: Wind and water did not form those Carolina bays. Long ago (the 1950s) the main researchers on the CBs determined that wind and water did NOT make the CBs, and they gave reasons that are as true today as they were then. They even tried all sorts of combinations of wind and water, but to no avail. And NORMAL hyper-velocity impacts does not explain them, either – the evidence in no way fits such impacts.

    Some day there will be an explanation for the CBs, but so far there is none. But as evidence comes out on them you are likely to see it here first. That is IF such evidence ever comes out. Scientists have been spinning their wheels a long time, with no real conclusions possible yet. It literally may not happen in our lifetimes.

    So, welcome again, professor James, and read to your heart’s content. There IS a search feature that searches based on posts, but not comments, so use that as you fill your head with impact discoveries and the occasional Carolina bay post.

  • Hey there,

    One would not expect a feature that is only 8 feet deep to
    persist for 100,000 years. At least I would not. I’ve been
    reading the dating research, it is without meaning to me.
    Just too many conflicting results. That part is clear.
    There has not been a definitive methodology for the dating.

    When I first saw the bays from that plane, my first reaction
    was ‘Karst geology gone mad’ but there hasn’t been a reasonable
    solution offered along that line either, at least to me. The
    way they focus their long axis somewhere in the Midwest has
    got to mean something other than “matching the predominant
    wind direction” – I grew up in the Midwest, that doesn’t fly.
    Looks can be deceiving, but until a comprehensive solution
    comes down the pike, it’s got to be an impact feature.

    The big mystery – impact with what!

  • Steve Garcia

    james –

    I’ve had that same thought about how the heck those seemingly fragile features could last so long when they are so shallow. Thanks for bringing that up.

    As to karst geology, some of the CB researchers going back a few decades have tried to equate the CBS to the karst (semi-)aligned lakes in river deltas on the north shore of Alaska. Go to Google Earth. They are hard to miss. But the entire geology is totally different. Those seem to be like sinkholes or cenotes with the geology making them semi-aligned and semi-elongated – and I speculate they were formed by the freeze-thaw cycles.

    I am reading on Georges Cuvier and his making the distinctions between elephants and mammoths and mastodons. I think the karst lakes are no more like the CBs than mastodons and mammoths are like elephants. Though many are aligned, also many are not. It looks more like bone under magnification.

    And BTW, there are some more of those karst lakes on and near the Lena River delta on the north coast of Siberia. The karst lake lakes there are clearly connected with their being in the river delta. There are others in other locations along the Arctic coast.

    One of the distinguishing features of the CBs is that they are NOT in riverine locations – evidently the one place they WERE eroded away.

  • Steve Garcia

    Davias has worked on the Cbs being from a low-velocity impact from some form of steam bubbles ejected from the Laurentian ice sheet. If I misrepresent him on that, I apologize to him.

    I think he is close, but not sold on the steam bubble idea itself. Yes, water. Yes, hot. Yes, vaporized. I think it was mixed with the shredded quartz sand that he’s made a big deal out of. And it IS. FYI, there is a homogeneous layer of quartz sand overlaying the CBs and around them. In places it is 40 feet thick and more. And where it lies over at least some CB rims, it is apparently draped over the rim and over the rim bottom, too, like a blanket. Obviously it fell either after the bays were formed or AS the bays were being formed.

    I favor the latter – and that their impact with the ground may have had something to do with making the rims and shallow depressions.

    It’s a really complicated thing. They’ve been puzzling researchers for 80 years now. If they formed all at once, then no one has thought of the “WHAT DID IT?” yet. If, like some of the terrestrial leaners think, they may have formed in two or more steps, even using multiple events they can’t make sense of them, either. However, the terrestrials – being gradualists – have the favored explanation – even though it has been falsified many times.

    I think Michael Davias is as close as anyone has come. He’s done terrific work on them. Go to and read to your heart’s content.

    And keep on throwing your thoughts into the ring, too. Several brains are better than one. Or two. Or five.

    I grew up in the Midwest, too. I was originally one of those Missouri “Show Me” people.

    The “somewhere” that the CBs align to is the Lake Michigan/Lower Pensinsula area, with allowance made for the Earth’s rotation while the ejecta was in flight. Davias points out that the few CBs out in the Great Plains ALSO point to the same origin.

  • George Howard

    What an essay!

  • Hermann Burchard

    What I have learned from TimH, who has commented here a lot, about
    the Carolina Bay quartz sands or gravels appears to imply these were
    excavated by ET-sourced impact after the last glacial maximum 22,000 ka
    (because there are some CBs on Long Island, a terminal moraine of the
    last Ice Age). The quartz gravels came from the impact explosion
    ejecting granite breccia from deep plutons which are known for
    phenocrysts, large macroscopic crystals, the granites being
    oversaturated with quartz. The CBs are still oozing hydrogen (H), which
    must come from great depths, planet Earth at its formation 4.5 billion
    years ago incorporating copious amounts of H which is the most abundant
    substance in the Universe still, and from which all other nuclei are
    derived in star interiors and supernova explosions. We know of the
    abundance of H in Earth’s interior through the Russian Superdeep
    Borehole on the Kola Peninsula, where H was boiling out of the well when
    they reached 40,000 feet. A likely source of the impact may have been
    the YDB comet, to which the Cosmic Tusk is dedicated. A coincidence of
    two major impacts from 22,000 to 12,900 ka, both north of the Great
    Lakes, is too much too believe. Cited against are Clovis culture
    remains supposedly found on top of some Cee Bees, but this should be
    re-investigated, and may be spurious. — Sorry George, this comment
    should go with your 1997 essay on the Cee Bees, would it be possible to
    move it over there . .??