Deep-time Impact Induced Volcanism: A Colloquy

Just as an aside, I am sure you are both aware of the view that earthquakes may be triggered by close passes of bolides and also those that strike th planet as well.

Han - I think you need to go back and check your translations. There is no evidence of the surface effects that a gravity induced crustal shift such as you propose have occurred in historical times, if ever. There are also no crustal shifts associated with impacts that I am aware of yet in historical times. No craters of sufficient size either. My opinion has been that Velikovsky's bad physics set back impact studies, and will continue to, until disposed of. Rod, I don't think that there is a body of sufficient mass which has passed close enough to set off earthquakes. The redistribution of planetary mass by spin is another question, one that is beyond me now.

E.P., this is about a longer time frame, not historical, as George remarks at the start of this tentative blog. Plate motion is measured in the range of at most a few inches per year so in 5 K yrs of "historical times" you get a couple hundred meters.. W.r.to "no evidence of the surface effects that a gravity induced crustal shift.. occurred," if you refer to plate tectonics, the idea is that plates slide "downhill" away from spreading centers or mid-ocean ridges. See Wikipedia articles for Mariana Trench and Subduction: Older, denser plate subducted under younger plate. Does that answer you? Rod, interesting idea about close passage but remote impact more likely (ocean, Sahara). Perhaps 1755 Lisbon quake antipodal to Australian impact shortly before James Cook arrived, but Abbott, Bryant, et al have different time frame..

This is private correpondence, which was posted on the Tusk by Burchard without my permission. I resent that, it amounts to disregarding ethical standards of conduct. I have asked George Howard to delete it. Han Kloosterman.

Han, you have my gratitude for your emails copied above. None of these were "private," if you will recall, as all had cc to George and Leroy [redacted out above by myself]. Included in my reply to you (vide supra) is this notice: "Han, thanks for that endorsement (partial) which I am forwarding to George and Leroy." George and Leroy being included as readers from the beginning, of course I meant for George Howard to consider posting, as the entire correspondence resulted from my reading your excellent and interesting Tusk blog, "Catastrophist Manifesto", with which I fully agree, but felt that the actual extent to which cosmic bodies impacting on Earth has shaped the planet, anathema to uniformitarians, shoud be explained, sort of as an addendum to the "Manifesto." I am happy with the outcome, this blog that George has kindly posted. Also, later [Tue, 4 May 2010 02:01:30 -0500 (CDT)] I wrote: "Han, it seems that George Howard, our host on Cosmic Tusk finds our email exchange that we had recently to be of sufficient general interest, and plans to post all or part on Tusk. This email to you from me is to make sure that you are agreeable to this. Just in case you wish to review some of your remarks, I am attaching a full set of our four (4) previous email exchanges and also a brief proposed SUMMARY ON IMPACT VOLCANISM." Here is your reply [Tue, 4 May 2010 13:56:27 +0200], w/o ANY objections from you to posting: "Hermann, I have done some editing in our correspondence but I don't know how to fix the changes, so perhaps you don't receive them. [...] Cheers, Han." Above ellipsis stands for a little joke you made about our two first names being commonly misspelled (Hans for Han and Herman with one "n"). Please consider to send edits of your emails to George, I believe he would not mind posting. In case you choose to do so, I will request George to delete these presents. Very sorry my lack of proper care has led to your discomfort and unhappiness with my actions. Yours affectionately, "Herman"

George, the cc's were NOT sent by me. I repeat my request, to urgently remove my e-mails. Why don't you just do it, when I ask you? I'm really getting irritated. Han.

Thank-you Han and also to Hermann. I do agree Han that it is not very likely that anything but a very large bolide is likely to be capable of contributing to erathquakes and volcanic activity. However, an object of say ten kilometres and larger just perhaps may have sufficient mass to initiate tectonic activity. Certainly, I have a number of references including those of Dr. Mike Baillie (Exodus to Arthur p. 81 and p. 181),suggest impacts are likely associated earthquakes that subsequently trigger volcanic eruptions. Dr. John S. Lewis (Rain of Iron and Ice p.34, as well as Dr. David Morrison and Chapman both indicate that comets for their part are associated with enormous amounts of energy upon impact. It is interesting that many of the climate downturns back through the Holocene as well as the Younger Dryas cold stadial (intervals when it now seems were times of cosmic impacts also had increased or at least very significant volcanic eruptions and earthquakes. The Younger Dryas too, though the Greenland Ice cores signature of volcanic eruptions is largely masked by other gases, was also a time of many volcanic eruptions.

Han, you saw my cc's and read that I was sending everything to George & Leroy and you seemed "agreeable to" posting msgs, MAKING NO NOISES until AFTER I suggested to you (unwisely) to edit your email. No objections from me against George taking out your emails. It will look like a funny blog, best if it ia just tossed. *Can I make a plea to keep the IMPACT VOLCANISM SUMMARY* "Herman"

Hi Rod, Hermann, Han - As we can clearly see at the KT boundary, large impacts do indeed trigger both anti-podal volcanic flows and nearby ones. Chatterjee's new Deccan sequence and Shiva clearly demonstrate this. Hermann, I think it is now time to look at the areas which were anti-podal to your hotspots when they occurred. Rod, whether any recent earthquake or volcanic activity was triggered by recent smaller impacts is pretty much unexamined, to my knowledge. Hermann, the hytpothetical gravity I refered to was from nearby passes of asteroids or comets. While I understand plate tectonics, I will say that one of the thing that baffles me is what caused the breakup of Pangea and powered the subsequent drifts and rifting.

Hi E.P. Yes I think you are correct, it likely takes a fairly large object (say like the impact event as discussed by Dr. Marie Agnes Courty some 4200 BP), and also the alledged impact event round the time of Santorini to trigger tectonic activity.

E.P., Rod, according to Chatterjee et al, the Shiva bolide "impact was so intense that it led to several geodynamic anomalies: it fragmented, sheared, and deformed the lithospheric mantle across the western Indian margin and contributed to major plate reorganization in the Indian Ocean. This resulted in a 500-km displacement of the Carlsberg Ridge and initiated rifting between India and the Seychelles. At the same time, the spreading center of the Laxmi Ridge jumped 500 km westerly close to the Carlsberg Ridge." Reading the entire abstract, it appears to support the idea that impacts can cause continents to break up. Cbatterjee et al mention a vertical rebound "upward for more than 50 km during the transient cavity stage as revealed by the mantle upwarping", which exceeds most continental thicknesses. The Pangea break-up would have begun with an Azores bolide impact, splitting N Africa from N America. - The Santorini volcano is a resurgent caldera that has erupted repeatedly prior to 1650 BC (if that is now the best estimate). The hotspot track may be apparent in geomorphic features in the Agean Sea and the Greek peninsulas all seeming to indicate a SE to NW displacement. Perhaps Lake Ohrid is the impact crater??

Regarding KT impact volcanism: http://www.thelocal.de/sci-tech/20100510-27097.html What is pathetic is the funding for impact research, whether very ancient or recent. Right now, we don't know what hit when. Hermann, you'll please have to excuse my inability to work on ancient impacts; what little abilities I have left since my stroke I have to focus on the more immediately pressing problem of the recent impact rate.

PS - An earthquake along the fault preceded the eruption of Thera. The release of toxic lake water near the sources of the Nile River most likely accounts for the memories of the "plagues" as preserved in the Old Testament. This earthquake was NOT impact caused, particularly by the gravitational or impact effects of Comet Encke. If it had of been, it would have been remembered.

Hi E.P Sorry I don't agree, as I do believe Thera like so many other volcanic eruptions was triggered by an impact. See Mike Baillie's very find book "Exodus to Arthur" for his presentation of impact related signatures from not only the Med. region but as far away as China at this time. The signs in the Med. were perhaps mostly volcanic and earthquake in nature, but not entirely.

Hi Rod - Its been a long time since I read "From Exodus to Arthyr" but cometary dust loading does not necessarily mean an impact took place. (BTW, it appears that the dust loading in itself is sufficient to cause climate collapse. And one catastrohe does not exclude another from happening at the same time. I did not find any in the period immediately before 1628 BCE. That does not mean one didn't happen, its just that I could not find any records of it. There was an impact, but ca 1585 BCE. viz: 1998-2002 On the Joshua impact event http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc032098.html http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc032598.html http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc033098.html http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc012102.html http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc021202.html Impacts roughly 40-50 years after the dust loading occurred at least twice, Bazas being the second example.

Hi Rod, E.P., about Santorini/ Thera's prehistoric eruptions, here is an excerpt from a Geological Society, London, Memoir with some details, edited: Geological Society, London, Memoirs; 1999; v. 19; p. 13-59; DOI: 10.1144/GSL.MEM.1999.019.01.03 © 1999 Geological Society of London Chapter 3 Development of the Santorini volcanic field in space and time Excerpt: Santorini is one of the largest Quaternary volcanic centres of the Aegean Region. The caldera cliffs preserve well-exposed sequences of lavas and pyroclastic deposits, which record the long development of the volcano in space and time. These include the products of 12 major explosive eruptions and the dissected remains of several ancient lava shields, stratovolcanoes, and lava-dome complexes. The former existence of multiple eruptive centres scattered over the present-day islands shows that Santorini is best considered as a volcanic field, which probably also continues under the sea (Heiken & McCoy 1984). Santorini is best known for the Minoan eruption of the late Bronze Age (Bond & Sparks 1976; Heiken & McCoy 1984; Sparks & Wilson 1990), but some of the previous explosive eruptions may have been as large (Druitt et al. 1989). The occurrence of repeated explosive eruptions has triggered formation of at least four large calderas, such that the present-day caldera is a composite structure (Druitt & Francaviglia 1992). Santorini is potentially one of the most dangerous volcanoes in Europe, having had numerous eruptions in historic times, some of them with significant explosive components (Fytikas et al. 1990a). The evolution of Santorini has been the focus of several detailed studies (Fouqué 1879; Reck 1936; Pichler & Kussmaul 1980; Heiken & McCoy 1984; Huijsmans 1985; Druitt et al. 1989; Druitt & Francaviglia 1992) as summarized in Chapter 1. Pichler & Kussmaul (1980) published a geological map of the islands that has been the basis of volcanological studies for the last eruptions.

Here is a list of authors for the above quoted LGS memoir: T. H. Druitt, Laboratoire Magmas et Volcans (UMR6524 et CNRS), Université Blaise Pascal, 5, Rue Kessler, 63038 Clermont Ferrand, France L. Edwards, Department of Earth Sciences, University of Bristol, Bristol BS8 1RJ, UK R. M. Mellors, Department of Earth Sciences, University of Cambridge, Cambridge CB2 3EQ, UK D. M. Pyle, Department of Earth Sciences, University of Cambridge, Cambridge CB2 3EQ, UK R. S. J. Sparks, Department of Earth Sciences, University of Bristol, Bristol BS8 1RJ, UK M. Lanphere, Branch of Isotope Geology, MS 937, US Geological Survey, 345, Middlefield Road, Menlo Park, California 94025, USA M. Davies, Laboratoire Magmas et Volcans (UMR6524 et CNRS), Université Blaise Pascal, 5, Rue Kessler, 63038 Clermont Ferrand, France B. Barreirio, NIGL, British Geological Survey, Keyworth, Nottingham NG12 5GG, UK

Hi E.P. and Hermann: Thank-you for the volcanic eruption references. I am putting together a summary on my views in this regard. I will post very soon.

Hi again E.P. and Hermann: I finally got around to sythesizing my thoughts regarding the role volcanic eruptions may have had in the catastrophic events, at least through the Holocene and extending back at least to the Younger Dryas approximately 13,000 BP. I have for my little summary examined three climate downturns within the mid to late Holocene. The three intervals are: 1) approximately 4200 to 4300 BP, 2) about 3600 BP and finally 3)almost 1500 BP. That these three climate downturns were all characterized by suddenly colder, drier conditions that were apparent around the world attest to their main forcing mechanism, and that it would seem are cosmic encounters. That volcanic eruptions on their own are capable of the large repercussionas seen at these three times is highly unlikely. This is because the aftermath of volcanic eruptions, even the very large ones, are rarely for more that a year or two at most. The earliest of the cold intervals, dated at 4345 BP was upwards of two hundred years in length, with the other two admittedly of much shorter duration, (decades to several decades). All are nonetheless too long and severe to be initiated by volcanic eruptions on their own. I say on their own because volcanic eruptions most certainly contributed to the climate deterioration, at least for the 1628 BC inteval. In that case, it was of course Thera (Sanorini) that added dust to the atmosphere. That the dust was far more extensive in duration and in geographic extent than can be attributed to volcanic eruptions (perhaps other than megavolcanoes) is attested to by a number of interesting features. They range from astronomical observations of usually visible heavenly bodies being obscured from view for many months at a time. Also, other intriguing references to what appear to have been significnat comets, not that far from earth Observations by peoples in China, Europe and the Mediterranean are some the regions where interesting features in the sky were to be noted. There are some other features too, such as unusual compacted layers, as discovered by Dr. Marie Agnes Courty, dated at about 4300 BP. As well, a possible comet impact crater, likely originating from the same time was discovered not for away from Syria (where Dr. Courty discoverd her interesting layer); this in southern Iraq. Now, it is very plausilbe that volcanic eruptions and earthquakes both are triggered by most certainly large meteorite impacts. Somewhat more speculative are the possible affects of changing continental glacial mass (associated with the sudden locking up of more ice in higher latitude regions), and also the close by passage of comets not actually striking the earth, but leaving their signature, both in the form of cosmic showers and repercussions in the form of large gravitational forces, that then may well initiate tectonic activity.

Hi Rod - I think you are missing Hermann's point: these wounds were both very ancient and very massive. Those researching impacts have been trying for quite some time to sort out solar variability, volcanic dust loads, impact dust loads,(and more recently possible AGW effects). The problem has been lack of research funding for geological work on recent impacts.

From an ancient 1988 article in GRL. Australasian tektite impact crater off center Vietnam coast at 13°47′N,110°37′E: Schnetzler, C. C., L. S. Walter, and J. G. Marsh (1988), Source of the Australasian Tektite Strewn Field: A possible off‐shore impact site, Geophys. Res. Lett., 15(4), 357-360. http://europa.agu.org.argo.library.okstate.edu/?uri=/journals/gl/GL015i004p00357.xml&view=article I used to think the impact was at the Spratly Islands further East. Maybe a multiple impact, like we have heard so often?

URL for the Australasian tektite crater, please amend: http://europa.agu.org/?uri=/journals/gl/GL015i004p00357.xml&view=article

Thanks, Hermann - The crater source for these tektites has been a mystery for quite a while. Of course, oil pools in impact fractures. Given the crater's location, one wonders what has been going on earlier privately, and what the future geopolitical reaction to the public news will be.