Loading...I have nothing but an iPhone until later tomorrow. So this post is necessarily brief.
Allen West has taken a hit to his credibility (and to some extent the Tusk’s) from charges by Younger Dryas Hypothesis critics ranging from professional misconduct to falsifying lab results.
As an advocate of Allen’s and someone who has spent years watching him personally sacrifice with no financial gain from this subject, I am probably as surprised as anyone these charges have emerged.
There is surely some truth here — but more than a little spin.
For one Allen never claimed he was any more credentialed than he was — the first time I spoke with him he claimed only a philosophy doctorate from an obscure school in Nebraska. That said, it is hard to find out someone you know once went by different name.
I am in touch with Allen and hope to have more to say soon.
http://www.miller-mccune.com/science/comet-claim-comes-crashing-to-earth-31180/
Comet Theory Comes Crashing to Earth
An elegant archaeological hypothesis, under fire for results that can’t be replicated, may ultimately come undone.
By Rex DaltonEven though they can’t replicate their work, the authors of a controversial scientific theory about a comet impact that caused the Clovis catastrophe refuse to give in to their many critics. (Wikimedia Commons)
It seemed like such an elegant answer to an age-old mystery: the disappearance of what are arguably North America’s first people. A speeding comet nearly 13,000 years ago was the culprit, the theory goes, spraying ice and rocks across the continent, killing the Clovis people and the mammoths they fed on, and plunging the region into a deep chill. The idea so captivated the public that three movies describing the catastrophe were produced.
But now, four years after the purportedly supportive evidence was reported, a host of scientific authorities systematically have made the case that the comet theory is “bogus.” Researchers from multiple scientific fields are calling the theory one of the most misguided ideas in the history of modern archaeology, which begs for an independent review so an accurate record is reflected in the literature.
“It is an impossible scenario,” says Mark Boslough, a physicist at Sandia Laboratory in Albuquerque, N.M., where he taps the world’s fastest computers for nuclear bomb experiments to study such impacts. His computations show the debris from such a comet couldn’t cover the proposed impact field. In March, a “requiem” for the theory even was published by a group that included leading specialists from archaeology to botany.
Yet, the scientists who described the alleged impact in a hallowed U.S. scientific journal refuse to consider the critics’ evidence — insisting they are correct, even though no one can replicate their work: the hallmark of credibility in the scientific world.
The primary authors of the theory are an unusual mix: James Kennett, a virtual father of marine geology from the University of California, Santa Barbara; Richard Firestone, a physicist at Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory in California; and Allen West, an unknown academic from the mining industry who lives in Dewey, Ariz.
“We are under a lot of duress,” said Kennett. “It has been quite painful.” So much so, that team members call their critics’ work “biased,” “nonsense” and “screwed up.”Such intransigence has been seen before in other cases of grand scientific claims. Sometimes those theories were based on data irregularities. Other times, the proponents succumbed to self-delusion. But typically, advocates become so invested in their ideas they can’t publicly acknowledge error.
A new look at the comet claim suggests all of these phenomena may be in play, apparently creating a peculiar bond of desperation as the theory came under increasing attack. Indeed, the team’s established scientists are so wedded to the theory they have opted to ignore the fact their colleague “Allen West” isn’t exactly who he says he is.
West is Allen Whitt — who, in 2002, was fined by California and convicted for masquerading as a state-licensed geologist when he charged small-town officials fat fees for water studies. After completing probation in 2003 in San Bernardino County, he began work on the comet theory, legally adopting his new name in 2006 as he promoted it in a popular book. Only when questioned by this reporter last year did his co-authors learn his original identity and legal history. Since then, they have not disclosed it to the scientific community.
West’s history — and new concerns about study results he was integrally involved in — raise intriguing questions about the veracity of the comet claim. His background is likely to create more doubts about the theory. And the controversy — because it involves the politically sensitive issue of a climate shift — is potentially more broadly damaging, authorities suggest.
“It does feed distrust in science,” says Wallace Broecker, a geochemist at Columbia University and an international dean of climate research. “Those who don’t believe in human-produced global warming grab onto it.”West is at the nexus of almost all the evidence for the original comet claims. His fieldwork is described in the 2006 book he authored with Firestone, The Cycle of Cosmic Catastrophes.
To show the comet’s deadly plume, West collected various sediment samples from 25 archaeology sites across the United States. He used a magnet to find iron flecks reportedly from the comet, scooped up carbon spherules reflecting subsequent fires, and argued that high concentrations of such material at particular sedimentary levels supported their theory.
The team has argued a 4-kilometer comet tumbled into ice sheets 12,900 years ago, leading to the so-called Younger Dryas, when the temperature cooled for more than a thousand years.
The flying debris appeared to answer questions about the Clovis peoples’ disappearance that had defied prior explanation. The supposed remnants of the comet hadn’t received intense scrutiny by researchers previously probing sediments at archaeology sites. And water from melted ice flowing into the oceans could explain the precipitous temperature drop.
But all these claims have been sharply disputed in a series of scientific articles over the last 18 months. Examples include:
University of Wyoming archaeologist Todd Surovell and his colleagues couldn’t find increased magnetic spherules representing cosmic debris at seven Clovis sites. Nicholas Pinter and his colleagues at Southern Illinois University Carbondale argue the carbon spherules are organic residue of fungus or arthropod excrement. And Tyrone Daulton of Washington University in St. Louis and his colleagues reported that supposed nanodiamonds formed by the impact were misidentified.Speaking of the various reports, Surovell said, “We all built a critical mass of data suggesting there was a serious problem.”
Now, Boslough and colleagues have conducted new analysis of purported comet debris samples that raises even more troubling credibility questions.On March 25, Boslough reported that radio-carbon dating of a carbon spherule sample shows it is only about 200 years old — an “irregularity” that indicates is it not from the alleged 12,900-year-old impact time.
This means that a sample from a layer purporting to show a high concentration of spherules at the inception of the Younger Dryas actually only was about as old as the Declaration of Independence.
About two years ago, as his doubts on the theory were building, Boslough contacted West to secure carbon spherule samples for analysis. West sent him 16 spherules, purportedly from the Younger Dryas boundary sediment layer at an archaeology site called Gainey in Michigan — a location with the highest spherule count of studied locations.
Boslough subsequently forwarded the unopened package of spherules to the National Science Foundation-funded radio-carbon laboratory at the University of Arizona in Tucson. There, a dating specialist randomly selected a spherule — the one ultimately found to be about 200 years old. Boslough reported these results at an American Geophysical Union conference in Santa Fe, N.M.
Afterward, Boslough said: “I don’t think there is any reason to accept what West reported. I have a serious problem with everything from him.”Did someone salt a sediment layer to increase the spherule count? Or did the 200-year-old sample inadvertently get mixed in somehow? Boslough says he can’t provide an answer, but there was some form of “contamination.”
But an answer is needed, he said: “I wouldn’t sweep it under the rug.”After his presentation, West wrote Boslough that he believed that the questioned sample somehow got mixed naturally over time into a lower sediment layer. Both Kennett and Firestone agreed.
But Vance Holliday, a University of Arizona archaeologist who has studied Clovis sites for 30 years, found this explanation nonsensical. Such mixing of spherules from different eras could invalidate any conclusion that higher spherule counts represented evidence of a comet impact.
“I suspect something very odd is going on,” adds Holliday, who also has become a critic of the comet theory.
After the theory was first announced in 2007 in Acapulco, Mexico, Holliday had attempted to collaborate with Kennett to test the idea. But Kennett effectively blocked publication of the study last year after the results didn’t support the comet theory.
And those results were blindly analyzed by an independent reviewer selected by Kennett himself. That independent reviewer was none other than Walter Alvarez — an esteemed University of California, Berkeley, geologist and son of Luis Alvarez, the Nobel Prize-winning physicist who first proposed an asteroid struck the Yucatan Peninsula in Mexico about 65 million years ago, wiping out the world’s dinosaurs and most life.The Holliday-Kennett study has never been presented publicly. The results were obtained independent of the two authors. Holliday then agreed to discuss events; Kennett also answered questions about the study but didn’t reach the same conclusions as his colleague.
For decades, Holliday has studied a Clovis site at Lubbock Lake Landmark State Historical Park in Texas, just east of the original location where the Clovis people’s distinctive fluted projectile points were first discovered in New Mexico. After a visit there in the summer of 2007, Holliday examined sediments from an exposed section that included the signature of the inception of the Younger Dryas. He then took samples from six sedimentary layers within a 35-centimeter section encompassing the Younger Dryas.
The study then worked like this: Based on analyses of the layers, both Kennett and Holliday sent to Alvarez their predictions on which layer reflected the geochemical characteristics for the beginning of the Younger Dryas. But neither Kennett nor Alvarez knew the order of the sediment layers; not knowing this order would add credibility to their conclusions.
In a surprise, Kennett’s analysis included sedimentary counts for what he called nanodiamonds — which his group says were produced by the enormous energy from comet explosion.
Holliday accurately predicted what layer was associated with the Younger Dryas boundary. But Kennett did not. Kennett’s selected nanodiamond-rich layer was 25 centimeters above the Younger Dryas boundary — meaning it was about 1,000 years younger than the claimed impact time. To Alvarez, this indicated a comet-impact hypothesis was incorrect.
After considerable behind-the-scenes arguing, Holliday said, Kennett ultimately complained last summer that the study was “fundamentally flawed” and wouldn’t allow him to publish his results. Now, Kennett says, he is continuing to analyze the data.
“It is very peculiar,” Holliday said. “They propose an idea, a study contradicts it, then they criticize the scientists or the work.”
Both Kennett and Columbia’s Broecker, are elected members of the prestigious U.S. National Academy of Science; near age peers, they are also old friends. Years ago, Broecker noted, Kennett published seminal discoveries on ancient climate shifts by studying cores drilled deep into the ocean floor.Speaking graciously of Kennett, Broecker lauded his friend’s early climate studies as extremely important. But when the comet theory came along, Broecker immediately was highly skeptical. Kennett repeatedly called him to lobby for the comet until Broecker cut him off saying he didn’t want to hear about the theory anymore.
“It is all wrong,” said Broecker, if not “very likely total nonsense. But he never gives up on an idea.”
Kennett seems fixated on the Younger Dryas, Broecker added, “He won’t listen to anyone. It’s almost like a religion to him.”
Acknowledging the dispute, Kennett said, “I know he thinks I’m wrong; maybe he’ll change his mind someday.”About 20 years ago, Broecker noted Kennett had proposed a similarly wayward theory that a burst of methane from the ocean floor — sometimes called “a methane gun” — warmed the climate, ending the Younger Dyras.
“He pushed the methane-gun theory for years,” said Broecker. “He predicted an enormous methane peak would be reflected in ice-core records. But there wasn’t one; it was a ridiculous idea to begin with.”
Then he switched to the beginning of the Younger Dryas, Broecker added, “He was determined to make a splash; it blinded his judgment.”Ironically, he may be making a different type of impact with his odd-couple collaboration with West.
West has no formal appointment at an academic institution. He has said he obtained a doctorate from a Bible college, but he won’t describe it further. Firestone said West has told him he has no scientific doctorate but is self-taught. West’s Arizona attorney refers to him in writing as: “A retired geophysicist who has had a long and distinguished career.”
In the early 1990s, a new-age business West was involved in Sedona, Ariz., failed, and his well-drilling company went bankrupt. Then he ran afoul of California law in small Mojave Desert towns in a scheme with two other men, with court records saying they collected fees up to $39,500 for questionable groundwater reports.
He originally was charged with two felonies for falsely representing himself as a state-licensed geologist but agreed to a no contest plea to a single misdemeanor of false advertising as part of plea bargain in which state records say he was fined $4,500. Two other men in the scam also were sanctioned.
Acknowledging he made a mistake, West has sought to downplay the 9-year-old conviction. And last September, after his impact theory colleagues learned of it, he went back to court in Victorville, Calif., convincing a judge to void the old plea.
After earlier denying any impropriety with his Younger Dryas work, West declined a recent interview request. Last month, he wrote a letter charging it was “highly prejudicial and distorted” to bring up his legal past in the context of his current studies. He is a member of “a group of two dozen dedicated scientists performing cutting-edge, although controversial, research,” he wrote.Initially last year, Kennett was speechless when confronted with West’s history. He and Firestone learned of it because of this reporter’s questions. Since then, he has continued to collaborate and publish research with West. Within weeks of learning of West’s background, Kennett pushed for news coverage last September of an article contending nanodiamonds in Greenland supported their comet theory. But the article didn’t sway critics.
Today, Kennett won’t discuss West’s criminal past at all — saying West is “wonderful, an absolutely remarkable researcher.” Firestone acknowledges West “did some strange things” but continues to defend that his work is above reproach.
Among the theory’s critics, there are decidedly differing opinions.“This is so far beyond the pale — outside of normal experiences in conducting science — you can’t ignore it,” Southern Illiois’ Pinter said. Asked if he would collaborate with West, he said, “I would run screaming away.”
And the three years and research dollars spent on the claim leave a bitter memory for some. “My response is not publishable,” said Pinter.
Some academic institution needs to thoroughly examine the issue and answer the obvious questions that abound, critics say. Several said they already would have reported the events to administrators at their respective universities.
UCSB is the most likely institution to conduct a review, since Kennett used an NSF grant there on comet studies. But this will mean questioning an esteemed faculty member — Kennett — who is seen as having helped put the campus on the international scientific map.Among those who believe a formal inquiry should be initiated to determine if there was any misconduct is Jeffrey Severinghaus, an isotopic chemist at the University of California, San Diego’s Scripps Institution of Oceanography. An inquiry is the first level of such scrutiny; an investigation that could lead to sanctions would follow if the inquiry finds evidence of impropriety. Such probes have sniffed out questionable data from cases such as the rejected cold fusion claim and the false Korean assertion of cloning human embryos from stem cells.
“Wow,” said Severinghaus upon hearing of the latest developments in the comet theory, which he initially doubted because of his earlier ice-core studies. “It certainly sounds like there is sufficient evidence to justify an initial inquiry.”
Asked if he would seek such a move, he said, “Absolutely. It is really important to maintain the public trust in science. That means if there is a bad apple, it is rooted out and exposed.”Bruce Hanley, UCSB’s director of research compliance, declined to be interviewed, although in an email he wrote that UCSB “is extremely interested in maintaining a high level of integrity” in research, and has a formal process for review of “unacceptable research practices.” Such a review is done confidentially.
Meanwhile, the next stop for the comet proponents’ road show is Bern, Switzerland. In July, they are scheduled to present research to a major international conference that studies the last 2.5 million years, the quaternary.
With many leading impact scientists in Europe equally skeptical of the theory, their welcome may be as icy as that period often was.
The same website (miller-mccune) also reports a study [Amy Owen et al, Duke University] a smaller volume of the hippocampus for religious people – catholics, born-again evangelicals, and people who had a life- changing religious experience.
This result is very easy to understand for us Jesus-freaks: We have fewer lies to remember [the hippocampus is a brain region involved in forming memories].
My own life changed in a beautiful Gothic church on a visit back home to Germany. My wife and children watched in surprise as I sat down and sobbed for a while. Must have been something in seeing the light shine through the stained-glass windows and hearing the organ play beautiful music. Years later, I started to attend meetings at Rhema Church in Broken Arrow OK and heard “Dad” Hagin explain the Bible. Played his audio tapes in my car over and over to get the fine points (a need that us maths folk acquire on the job).
My memory is pretty good, though: Since then I have published two maths phil papers and don’t forget my passwords. Just forgot all my youthful missteps, now forgiven by heaven after I accepted Jesus as my savior.
And here you are, George, a simple country boy from Carolina curious about the odd shape local ponds, and you now find yourself involved in this. You think you saw heavy hitting while you were working on the Hill? You haven’t seen nothing yet.
As Pinter put it, “This is so far beyond the pale — outside of normal experiences in conducting science — you can’t ignore it,” and I definitely agree with him on that. The entire Morrison& Mueller vs Clube& Napier “debate” over cometary injection mechanisms is going to make a fascinating adn one of the great stories in the history of science.
Myself, I just started out with a simple op-ed piece, and a deep interest in the end of the Minoans (LM 1B). Even with a background in Soviet and post Soviet relations, the “sh…tuff” I’ve seen with this since then has everything I saw then beat by a mile.
Let me start at the beginning…
Initially, I had dismissed Teller et al’ warnings of the hazard as simply the ravings of nuclear scientists looking for work… Then I stumbled into modern impact studies, and when I realized that the Minoan military forces had been killed by impact, leaving them open to conquest by the Achaeans, my interest increased greatly.
(If you have any doubts as to the background of this particular piece, its interesting to note how Dalton covers Kennett’s change of mind on what caused the end of Clovis, and Kennett’s reaction when he became aware of the magnitude of the impact hazard.)
To continue, at the time NASA was doing nothing. I response to the movies “Deep Impact” and “Armageddon” Wesley Huntress decided that he would have to do a little bit. Here’s when I became aware of the “debate”
I was covering hearings on the impact hazard, and making guesses as to who would get the NASA office. I thought it would be Eleanor Helin, and was surprised to learn that it was Yeomans at JPL. When I reported the story Morrison accused me of making it up, and thinking he was of good spirit, I revealed to him my source, a young Native American intern. When I found him in the NASA lobby holding his head, I asked him what was wrong, and he declined to say, but I never saw him again.
As near as I can figure out today,
Morrison hoped that the work would go to him and Arizona, instead of to JPL, and simply took his frustration with Huntress’s decision out on the guy who reported it. Of course, without the subpoena powers of either the House and/or Senate space subcommittees, or the NASA GAO auditors, including their access to sworn testimony and NASA e-mail archives, it is impossible to know.
I had no idea of the depth of bitterness of the “debate” between Morrison and Mueller/Clube and Napier. I also had no idea how hard Ed Weiler would fight to resist taking on any responsibility for the safety of the citizens of this country.
That would come later.
Dalton writes: “Walter Alvarez [..] who first proposed an asteroid struck the Yucatan Peninsula in Mexico about 65 million years ago, wiping out the world’s dinosaurs and most life.”
Not a word about Shiva a much larger impoact/ crater at almost exactly the same time [exact timing of the two craters still unknown].
Hi George – damn here we are at Part 3 – not too good for an elevator briefing, and there’s a whole lot more to come.
By 2002 I pretty much had it down in my piece:
WORKSHOP FOR MITIGATING THE EFFECTS OF PUBLIC CONCERN ON THE NASA BUREAUCRACY:
TWO DAYS IN WASHINGTON, 2002
I really was getting tired of it, and DC, and it was time to do some books on impacts in history.
At that point, Alex R Blackwell, a “planetary scientist” who made his living in Hawaii by pumping out watery Mars crap that defied the laws of state for vacuums, told me he had been in contact with several US “impact specialists”, who he declined to identify. Blackwell claimed that these “impact specialists” received threatening e-mails from me, e-mails which they forwarded to the NASA security office.
Blackwell additionally claimed that these “impact specialists” alleged that I intruded into office areas at NASA headquarters in an attempt to confront them, and that they had this inserted into the headquarter’s security log. Blackwell’s final claim was that these reports had resulted in me being put on a NASA security “watch list”.
Of course, I had no way of checking on any of this, but after 9/11 security was tight. I was packing up to do the books and really did not need the stress of running it all down.
(Why I would be so stupid as to write threatening e-mails giving warning before taking action was not explained to me.
As far as moving around in HQ, yeah, the impact office was another floor down from the press office at the time. The press office had called me about the NASA impact detection budget; I arrived at HQ at their invitation, and had checked in there before they led me down there to try and find the NASA impactor detection budget, which was part of my journalistic responsibility and their duties.
Its a wonder they did not accuse me of being a spy for Russia or China. But who knows given the atmosphere of attack politics in DC, maybe they did. I guess that makes you Comrade George now, Tovarich.)
I arrived in Kempton, Illinois in 2004. At that point Benny took the Cambridge Conference over to Global Warmng Scepticism, thus eliminating the sole channel impact researchers had for rapidly disseminating information, and further burdening the Morrison & Mueller/Clube and Napier debate by deeply involving it with what in my view are largely extraneous matters.
The effects of this are seen in today’s Dalton piece:
“And the controversy — because it involves the politically sensitive issue of a climate shift — is potentially more broadly damaging, authorities suggest.
“It does feed distrust in science,” says Wallace Broecker, a geochemist at Columbia University and an international dean of climate research. “Those who don’t believe in human-produced global warming grab onto it.”
Yeah, well, B*** S***, Wally.
Or more politely, Dr. Broecker, while what you are saying about the AGW sceptics is true, that does not mean that a comet impact(s) did not occur at 10,850 BCE, and that it (they) might not have triggered a fundamental shift in the Earth’s climate. Neither does West’s involvement or his past record change the fact that some 10 separate major laboratories have validated the YD layer impactites.
The problem that I have with all of them, AGW and anti, is that NONE of them work on the science of solar variability and ozone valving. That includes EVERYONE, including Benny, who in my opinion shifted from covering climate science to pumping out propaganda.
NONE of them talk about the TOMS satellite data series, or the GLORY or OCO losses.
Given that that debate degenerated into propaganda long ago…
F*** em all.
2004-2005 was spent putting together “Man and Impact in the Americas”, with the intention of following that test run with “Man and Impact in the Ancient Near East” using the library of the Oriental Institute, certainly one of the finest collections of Near Eastern texts in the world.
Then I had a stroke.
Followed by having my email accounts hacked, and being impersonated online.
But the Congress passed the George Brown Jr Amendment in December 2005 telling NASA to get on the impact hazard.
Which brings us to 2006, and more crap.
2007, NASA Administrator Mike Griffin blows off the Congress’s direct instructions to get on the impact hazard, relying on ATK’s support for cover against contempt of Congress charges, and Weiller and Morrison’s “science” for justification for doing so.
Late 2007, Firestone et al’s paper hits. Whatever Weiler/Morrison and Mueller can do, they can’t f**k with DOE funding of one of their top nuclear chemists. Nor change all of that strange 14C/10Be and other data, including the peppered mammoth and musk ox bones, which finally turn out to be from yet more and different iron asteroid impacts than the YD comet.
In the meantime, I’m trying to launch a book with too many typos, not enough pictures, and too small type. At first I am unable to type and I eat my tongue with dinner…
and then there’s always the denial of G** D*** F****** Mars Nuts to deal with, who want to pretend that NASA has no other purpose or use than to spend billions to fly a few men to Mars for a few days.
But enough about my problems…
In the deal to let Mike Griffin walk on Contempt of Congress, an order is sent to the NRC to study the hazard, and for the President to take action.
The NRC panel is managed by Dwayne Day, a man with no background in impact studies, and largely populated with “scientists” who agree with Morrison and Mueller.
That Morrison and Mueller’s hypothesis does not agree with the data is irrelevant.
2009 – President Obama and the world watches Jupiter get hit without warning. Obama/Holdren report to Congress that an impact office needs to be set up in FEMA.
2010 – The Shiva impact becomes publicized, hominids discovered in SE Asia killed by impact 1.9 mya.
The WISE orbital telescope proves that Morrison and Mueller’s Nemesis companion to our solar system does not exist. Cost: somewhere around $750,000,000 or so.
2011 – One month ago, Yeomans trots out a hazard estimate of his from 1982 which sets the cometary impact hazard at less than 1% of the total hazard, down from Morrison and Mueller’s 5%. Morrison agrees to need for orbital telescope for impactor detection. Cost: somewhere around $750,000,000 or so.
2011 – Dalton is unaware that Mueller was an associate of Luiz and Walter.
The major oil companies have their own perspective on this, as they continue to explore impact fissures for pools of oil.
Debate on the YD events still ongoing, with little to no money for actual data recovery and analysis.
Here at the Tusk, Native American accounts of the YD comet impacts dismissed as a bunch of nonsense from stoned injuns by Boslough’s good buddy Dennis Cox.
“Man and Impact in the Americas” still not in iBook format.
NASA Administrator Bolden believes major decisions on NASA’s future course will be made in June/July of this year.
OCTOBER, 2011 – 73P makes close approach. Don Yeoman’s forecast that it will turn into dust (a forecast made on a sample of 1, Comet Biela) will be compared with Comet 73P’s actual evolution.
By the way, NASA’s CONTOUR spacecraft to study 73P was lost a decade ago due to a faulty motor from ATK.
George, if you have any Hill contacts left, perhaps its time to give them a call.
Patton’s instructions to the Chaplain at the Bulge come to mind: Hermann, if you got any good prayers, maybe you want to pull them out now.
Please forgive the typos and grammatical errors in the above.
The facts are as I recall them, and should be carefully checked against the actual events. There’s more, but I think I included most of the key ones.
Did I mention my stroke earlier?
Ed, just about all here on this blog will be very grateful to you for this bio. . Just one Q: Did you disclose your own ethnic affiliation anywhere and what is it. Recently, you asked another CosmicTusk or email correspondent, forgot whom, to reveal such bio data (2nd time, you indicated). — Myself, I am German most of my ancestors having converted from Judaism centuries ago. My parents never made antisemitic remarks, the whole Hamburg clan was entirely good-natured in all deals, as behooves a city proud of its international trade center status.
No, Hermann, I never did reveal my ethnic affiliations here, or in seceral other exchanges, as they don’t bear on the topic at hand.
Perhaps I should have quoted Dennis Cox’s remarks directly, but anyone who wants to can go back and read them, unless George has removed them already.
CL claimed to be Native American and demanded that I stop passing on Native American historical traditions, hence my questions to CL about his claims.
Hermann, Patton told his Chaplain that if his prayer didn’t work he’d replace him.
Its pretty clear why Dalton timed the release of this story, but unfortunately when elephants fight, mice get crushed. I will be going out to powwow and events over the next two weeks, and will have to speak to this.
I suppose the thing to do will be to point out that the nanodiamonds were confirmed by 10 different major labs, and just label the story as a smear campaign to cover that up.
Hopefully, no one will stumble across the pictures of me with the crack pipe and Fifi.
CL is a guy?! Holy sheit, Kemo Sabe! I woould have sworn with all the gushing and meandering mentality, he was a chick of the New Age persuasion (no offense to chicks or New Age people intended)…ROFL
* * *
If anyone is interested in the slightest, I am of very mixed blood.
Known heritage: English, Irish, Mexican Indian, French, Cherokee. The Cherokee is 1/8th, on my mother’s side. The rest is not clearly known by me.
Suspected heritage: Jewish, Huastecan, a Habsburg connection.
English side – was told “we” came over before the Mayflower.
French side – father’s family came over to Mexico with the French contingent along with the Emperor Maximilian in the 1860s. When Max bit the big one in front of a firing squad in Querétaro, the family conveniently Mexicanized the family name from Garces to Garcia.
French side – Mother’s side – assertions in the family of being the first line of French kings, and also related to Mary Queen of Scots (which it seems half of the Northern hemisphere can claim).
Huastecan suspicion is solely based on the Mexican region where distant relatives live.
Cherokee – maternal great grandmother was Cherokee, who married into N Texas aristocratic family in the 1890s.
So, lots of admixture. Grew up poor, never had reason to be anti-anything, except perhaps anti-hillbilly and anti-trailer park folks.
Oh, I AM anti-stupid and anti-narrow-minded. And anti-Republicans (the IGMFEE*** party).
*** I Got Mine; F___ Everybody Else
Patton and the Battle of the Bulge:
Outside Italy, that was the only time the Americans came close to running into the full force of the German war machine, and that one lasted only about a week, because they literally ran out of gas. And bullets.
I think if the Americans had had to fight a battle like Stalingrad – against either the Germans or the Soviets, we’d have been slaughtered. We lost 300,000 total in both theaters of the war. The Germans lost 750,000 dead, the Soviets 500,000. All told on the Eastern Front, the Germans lost 5-8 million soldiers (I’ve seen different estimates), while the Soviets lost 10-12 million soldiers. I counted: the Soviets had over 1,100 military divisions fighting the Germans; the US had 17. By the time the US and UK had entered the war (only 11 months before the war ended), the Soviets had been fighting the Germans for 36 months, and the end of the war was inevitable by June 1944: The Soviets would crush Germany, with or without the Western Allies. They’d already pushed them out of 60% of the occupied territories by Aug 1944. If we had not joined in, the war would have been over in the summer of 1945, and the Soviets would have overrun Europe – so it is fortuitous for Europe that we finally deigned to join the fray.
The war in Europe lasted from SEP 1939 to MAY 1945, a total of 68 months if I count right. The US sat out 57 of those months, not counting the efforts in N Africa and Italy – both peripheral actions, N Africa in the extreme (it amounted to several hundred soldiers on each side). Casino and the Battle of the Bulge are the only direct and heavy fighting between the US and Germany. Compared to Stalingrad, those were pimples on Hitler’s bum. The War in the East was so big, and Americans simply don’t even know about it.
…and even THAT little bit had Patton – our most ferocious leader – asking for divine intervention.
BTW, Ed -
MUCH thanks for the history lesson. Though I’ve talked with you plenty, having it down in black and white is a very instructive outline. And much appreciated.
I get the impression you don’t much like Morrison…lol
HI George
When the simulations are made from meteoritic impact for multiple events distributed in time and space with different scales, I believe that data obtained in a single nucleus of comet on “an impossible scenario” investigated by Mark Boslough, a physicist at Sandia Laboratory, the data would can answer most questions.
How did the global extinction at the end of the Ice Age? Why are there so many elliptical structures (palaeolagoons) around the world with the presence of megafauna fossils or rock clasts (possible impactites)?
regards
pierson
Steve, that entire war was a much closer run thing than you know. You do need to read about Hitler and the Thule Society to understand its origins.
Pierson, you have models, and then you have data.
The fundamental error in Dalton’s article is that in fact the nanodiamonds have been confirmed by some 10 major international laboratories.
Given the difficulty in locating, sampling, and processing YD boundary samples, West’s background may explain some of the difficulties that have been hit in validation. On the other hand, there are a lot of people who simply want to deny the facts, and will go to any length to do so.
The fear of death by impact leads many to denial. Many other people have their professional careers tied up in other theories to explain the data.
Dalton likely falls into this second class, with CO2 being involved in glacial cycles. All I would point out is that in the YD case, the glacial lake outflow was triggered by impact, not seismic activity nor simply lake growth to the point of overwhelming ice dams.
There is a Atlantic data bias to current models, as reflected in Dalton’s temperature comments. From what I know of the current data, the Pacific and Arctic data are going to be critical in modeling the YD climate change.
While we here are being battered by this news, I think we’re losing sight of the long term.
Perhaps some comparisons with the istory of research on the KT event will be useful here.
When the Alavarez’s first announced their hypothesis around 1980, there was extreme public and scientific resistance for a decade, until the Chicxulub astrobleme was found.
(What occurred in “smaller” circles from the mid 1950′s on is entirely another story.)
In that case, it was an impact in the far past involving dinosaurs, and not one in the relatively recent past involving people.
At that point, it was assumed that Chicxulub was the only impact, and that it was an asteroid. No one suspected the impacts of multiple fragments of a long period comet.
Then the other major extinctions were noted.
Mueller came up with his “Nemesis” hypothesis to explain the KT and other extinctions, a hypothesis which Gene Shoemaker’s co-worker David Morrison quickly adopted.
Clube and Napier came up with the hypotheses of cometary impact, with gravitational perturbation as their injection mechanism to explain all of the extinction data.
I met a professor at Champaign who worked with Shoemaker some years later to try and explain the global distribution of the KT impactites. They developed an “unusual” ballistic model to do so. Neither of them suspected the Shiva impact and astrobleme.
As a matter of pubic record, some 41 of the world’s major scientists signed a letter stating that the KT impact had killed the dinosaurs shortly before the Shiva astrobleme gained public notice.
In the popular press and imagination, it is still “the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs” which left the Chicxulub crater. General knowledge of Shiva is nil.
On the other hand, the long term is just composed of a series of short terms. What Dalton’s effort is going to hit is the resources for impact research, which were little to nil before the latest.
This is all particularly difficult for me, as my own hypotheses are even more outrageous than Firstone and Kennett’s: several peoples remembered the events of 13,000 years ago, and remembered where they were. And thus their accounts may be used to try to delimit the areas of search for geological impact data, and the peoples themselves may be locked onto the archaeological record from that point.
Oh yes, by the way, since this impact killed people, the archaeological data may also be used to try to delimit the area of searches for impact.
Less controversially, another hypothesis is that the distribution of impactites may be used to delimit the area of search for astroblemes.
Finally, while it would have been far better for Firestone and Kennett to have had a geological field worker with better qualifications to do the sampling, West was available.
Also in the short term, the orbit of asteroid Apophis is being refined, and Comet 73P is making a loop through the inner solar system.
MY first thought was “Oh crap, here we go again with tainted science.”. But, on consideration, this is probably the best for scientific advancement. The ‘Big guns’ have so much ego and prestige invested that they are unlikely to gain a new perspective. But, fatal flaws in research projects force eveyone to go back over details and assumptions. And I believe that the spectacular crashes open the field for competing ideas.
As I’ve mentioned before; ego’s and funding requirements can degrade the quality of science, whether it be YD impacts or climate Global Warming data.
I think this may be a wake-up call for a lot of budding impactologists. I don’t poo poo education, but I think it must be viewed in perspective. Much more could be said on that, but I can already anticipate the stoning..:)
Paul -
To support you re education:
When my son got his MA in Economics, he then went into Urban Planning for his MS. The Department Head actually told him they preferred people who did NOT take Urban Planning as undergrads, because there would be too much to unlearn. (That school is U. of IL at Chicago, which has the biggest UP program in the country – but until three years ago did not even offer it at the undergrad level.)
Additionally, my son had originally wanted to be an architect, but to work as one it really takes at least a Masters, and he was advised as a sophomore to NOT take Architecture as an undergrad, because then they would have to undo the damage in the Masters program.
So, twice my son was specifically told that the higher educational system puts stuff into people’s minds that is worthless and counterproductive. There is a perspective that can be pumped in, that then needs to be pumped out, in order to help one have a better mindset. Now, which one is really correct – the “before” or “after” – I don’t know.
I DO think people need the basic physics, chemistry and math understandings, and need to be taught technical disciplines and procedures, like how to conduct a field study. It is in the interpretation (80%+ of archeological papers) where the “-ology” (the “study of”) can go awry; the data is what the data is (providing they haven’t fudged it as they have done in Global Warming). It is in extrapolating meaning that egos can take over.
Hi Paul –
I don’t know if using a non-degreed field worker to gather samples amounts to a “fatal flaw”.
Given the difficulties in sampling and sample preparation, of course it would have been better for a fully papered worker to have done it. You have to remember the amounts of funding available. Given those restraints, one uses any resource one can scrounge. It is also certain that there is no money for vetting.
There is no academic institution which gives degrees in impact studies, and at this point even the relatively hard science of geological understanding is undergoing development.
I certainly have no degree myself in anthropology, physics, linguistics, nor astronomy, and my own personal abilitites have declined greatly since my stroke. But the facts I assembled before that stroke stand quite separate from my own credentials and my abilities now. In my work I always left a good as references as I could so that others could follow, and I am accutely aware of the places where events made that impossible.
While I have no opinion on AGW, I do know that that debate has degenerated, as no one is looking closely at solar variability and ozone valving. I also am of the opinion that the AGW folks have every right to be bitter after having their mail hacked and selectively released with propaganda.
Your note to aspiring impactologists should be noted by quite a few people whose names come immediately to mind.
Quite frankly, its amazing how many people will authoritatively point to the survival of Wrangle Island mammoth, not realizing that they were the size of a large dog.
LOL Steve; My experience somewhat parallels your son’s.
Many (many!) years ago, I was double majoring in Geography and Economics (In Canada). I was hot to save the world from haphazard and indiscriminate urban sprawl. So I too was headed for land use and urban planning. (Yesterday I used my enlightening moment to give my own son a hint.)
I was lucky enough to encounter two planners from the city I lived in and pumped them for information. Lucky for me, they were young enough not to be burried in the beuracratic morass. Both were quite pesimistic of my intent to make a difference and explained the realities of City Hall to me…..Soon there after, I saw a job posting for a tiny Northern community: with only 5000 population, they were demanding a masters degree??
The definition of education has been perverted from the ‘pick and shovel’ tools of research, to some artificially exaulted status symbol. Universities have promoted this view, probably as a means of increasing tuitions and grants.
My main complaint about researchers making decptive claims is that when the deceptions are exposed, they cause wholesale destruction. The story of “The boy who cried wolf” comes to mind.
Humanity is fragile because of our density and our interdependance, and we face many threats. Tensions everywhere are elevated by governments tightening restrictions with ‘terror threats’. The result of discredited environmental or astrophisical reseaches is that any new theory or discovery is automatically rejected. And any possible positive actions are also rejected.
The threat level from combined sources is now so high that people are giving up. “Party on”! At the same time, trust and integrity appear to be reaching new lows. Leading to the same response. For most people a new discovery is worth nothing more that a few minutes distraction or entertainment. Sadly for real science, those few minutes can be very lucrative.
Hi Paul -
There are sins of commission and those of omission.
Did West actually make aqny false claims about his cretentials? Ever?
Should he have let his colleagues know of his qualifications and past diffficulties? Yes.
Given that locating the YD boundary, sampling it, and processing those samples is non-trivial, most definitely “yes”.
Does West’s lack of credentials copromise to some degree the data recovered? Yes.
Does it compromise all of that data fatally? NO.
Much of it was collected without West’s involvement in any manner.
One of my main problems is researchers making demonstrably false claims.
Another problem is the psaychological phenomena of denial.
I just wish your statement about how lucrative impact research is was true. It’s not.
Impact research certainly has not been lucrative professionally.
Perhaps I was myself simply not skilled enough to write real disaster porn that would give readers an easy thrill.
“A light hearted book about the deaths of millions of people.”
On the other hand, maybe that book was not what was needed to be written, at least by me.
Impact seems to do better on TV – with the inexpensive CGI, multipled shows have been done.
The problem is that the researchers make no money on those tv shows – they are used as free talking heads to fill between the shots.
Impact studies are real science.
Recent impacts are not imaginary phenomenon, nor artifacts of data collection.
This is me now without the input spell correction program.
This batttle has been brutal, George.
I truly will have more to say. I have spoken to researchers involved, which took some time, and have a perspective which I will share when I get the chance to write a bit. (I’ve driven at least two thousand miles since Sunday, in the midst of which I had to canoe 10 miles with regulators to review a dam removal. Making me the only known person to have conducted a stressful canoe trip).
Thanks for the comments. Be back soon.
HEY MR ED?
now what was that ?
I read you saying that the ‘neanderthals’ came here by haplogroup C and A.
now that there is just a piece of work.
SO Like since when ED has ‘neanderthals’( THAT IS YOUR RELIGIONS CONSTRUCTS. NOT MINE) ever been associated with those haplogroups OR EVEN HH, in anyway shape or form? when have those tools IN NORTH AMERICA ever been associated to those haplogroups?
HH IS my line , MY direct matrilineal is line is OLLIE/ she was ALLEGEWI, she is my ancestor at least 4 or 5 times that I know of … IN BRAZIL IT IS the line ELISANI some kind of like clan name.
YOU MISSED IT big time Mr ED , YOUR 180 degrees out from the truth , AND NOT EVEN CLOSE AND NOT EVEN HEADED IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.
YOU KNOW PEOPLE WHO STUDY THE BIBLE SAY ” LET THE BIBLE INTERPRET ITSELF”
WELL ED ,
it would be best that you let native and every kind of eye witnessed history interpet itself too , as obviuosly
‘logic’ is no man’s strong suit or else they wouldn’t be where they are today..
you must really let eye witnesses interprets themselves, it does that so very nicely.
truth , it really doesn’t need any help from those who would like to and have hijack it, used it , raped it and bi*chslap everyones ancestors who were eye witnessed to these things .
FYI just because no one can talk about the truth,
doesn’t mean they will ever really be buying what you and your priests of “logic” and “magic” machines are selling.
something huge happened just 2800 and 3200 years ago! until everyone and anyone explains that to my satisfaction, they will have not have earned one tiny right to tell me or any of mine what happened one day before those dates are explained.
@Ed Grondine: Above on May 18, you write these (to me somewhat enigmatic) words:
All I would point out is that in the YD case, the glacial lake outflow was triggered by impact, not seismic activity nor simply lake growth to the point of overwhelming ice dams.
Do we know of impact triggered outflow events from the glacial Great Lakes?
There was a Kankakee Torrent, dated vaguely as pre-YD. It has left spectacular formations SW from Chicago.
Hi Hermann –
Yes, wehave 2 accounts that line up with the geological evidence. Both of those accounts used to be here, but Dennis graffitied the Assiniboine account. The Mohawk account is still here.
CL –
Delusional frameworks are impenetrable.
I do tend to get angry when people put words in my mouth. Your summary of my post on the distribution of the b0006 haplotype at the archaeologica forum is inaccurate.
Once again, “Allegewi” is a name made up by a colonist. There were none.
From the French allegue… pretendu, le suspect.
“Delusional frameworks are impenetrable.”
Oui. But CL, now I’m thinking you’re a Joseph Smith fan.
“Unless HN maritime technology is found, which may be submergered right now, then my working assumption currently is that b0006 survived from HH among HSS C and A mt DNA haplogroups. Of course, correlation studies would be nice.”
You were saying those genes got here in haplogroup C and A!
I thought maybe your lies, and stretches in reality and just plain ol ignorance were because you were forgetting stuff because of your stroke, I was really trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. how does that go?
lies , lies and more lies and then damn lies then statistics/sciences. now I know you are just another run of the mill liar.
there is no such thing as HH or HN, that is more of you’all scientific communities “proved” in their own circular reasoned and special kind of “Logic ” and other magic machines of faith….. but it truely reveals is just their profound ignorance and racism .
those are just female clan line types dummy rotf !!!!
and Ollie was Alle gewi/ Alleg and Ellishah
Mengewi were Menes or his twins people lost here during the event/s?.
like it or not buddy!
you can all go back to your fantasy YD land now.
Ed, thanks!
The Mohawk flood is well-timed to YD, 13,350 BP, predecessor of Lake Ontario draining. The Kankakee Torrent must have been simultaneous, draining Lake Michigan. Will look for First Peoples accounts.
Vandalism and pointless destruction are the worst of society’s crimes. They are evidence of some latent psycotic gene hidden in our structure. In every field of endevour we find traces of this irrational and violent behavior. Sometimes, it expesses as anti social behavior, sometimes as random violence. The common trait is that there is never a constructive intent.
Some displays on this forum are a perfect example. There is nothing to be gained by randomly attacking posters (whether one agrees or not). Most of us are here seeking information, a few have work that they post to get support or rebutal. Some seek any venue to post, wild, annonymous and ranting attacks on everything, without ever posting support??
It almost appears as if one of our members has a multiple personality disorder?? Perhaps George could check the ip’s for that. lol
“The common trait is that there is never a constructive intent”
sir THE TRUTH IS ALWAYS CONSTRUCTIVE!
what I love though is way you seem to have forgot 200 or 300 or 400 years of beating the hell out of our stories and every eye witnessed kind of history and killing off just about everything else that can stand in the way of your very special limited
knowledge” and inferior very circular
“logic”.
so one person stands up and says to the man who is speaking for native americans to
” please just stop it” because he is clueless…. I asked nice at first .. he fluffed and screamed about his veiws being discriminated against because he is quoting native americans and claiming some kind of holy ground because he asked them a few questions.. he fluffs some more and calls me a liar and I told him three times who my ancestor was and he calls my ancestors liars, in the same post he is lieing to me in. I’m not calling his ancestors liars I am calling him a liar. when he clearing is trying to link haplogroup A and C with HH and HN.. calling me all kinds of names and every sort of inferences .
nothing random to it.. I was talking to him
then you start talking about
” destructive and violence. in society ” dude look in the mirror!
no random to it! I wanted one man to stop his cra and his lies and pushing his man made up bag of tricks and magic on everyone who don’t have even the slightest clue because for 200+++++ years your non destructive “society” has beat the hell out of everyone. and now you all want the rest of it .
NO . there is
no violence to it. I never hit or will hit anyone ever.
at first I was asking nice as I could in the start.
So maybe you fellas are such drama queens maybe? or you dish it, but cant take what you dish out?
sorry but you old farts started calling me names remember?
such ahhhh “violence ” yes there was violence in this society and for 300 or four hundred years that you seem to have forgot!
Chicken Little; Thank You for the explanation. The “Beating the crap out of”..all things, Native American has being going on for 500+ now. It has been part of the process of conquest and subjugation. I do not condone this form of violence or any other. It happened, it is the reason we are communicating on a computer today.
I don’t know if Mr Grondine suggested that he could speak for early North Americans. I am fairly confident that with reliance on oral transmision of history, nobody really can. Including yourself. If you are a ‘Native American’, if shamanist or aristocratic lineage and have spent your entire life steeped in the traditions, then you would have a much better claim to do so. However, for credibility you would need to post your family tree as far as you can do so.
If what you say is true, I can completely understand that might be outraged if you felt your ancestors were being misrepresented or maligned in some way. I don’t understand how that could happen in this context.
Mr. Grondine appears quite ‘Professorial’ at times, but he always seems polite. I know that you have probably detailed your complaints in the forum. I have not seen anything except angry posts. If you could write your case in a word doc and post it here, I would appreciate it and I’m sure others would too. If you don’t want to post it here, you could email it to me at >> rockpick@telus.net <<. That is my real email so please don't spam me into having to change it. lol
I have no claim to your personal information, and I don't have any special qualifications requiring the information. I would just like to understand your side of the story. Every culture in the world has 'Catastrophy Myths', most including cosmic arrivals. I think all of us agree that there have been impacts. What we don't know is how many and what effects they have had on people.
Hi Paul –
I’ll get to our nuager CL in a minute, but lets start with Mr. Cox:
Jusgophukyerselph Thursday, May 26, 2011 6:29 PM
From: “Dennis Cox”
To: “Ed Grondine” ,
“George Howard” Ed said
“Dennis graffitied the Assiniboine account.”
I don’t know if I’d call it graffiti. It was just the sweet unvarnished truth. Especially the things I said about you.
I think you have delusions of grandeur Ed. I don’t know what you think you are. But the dean of impact science you ain’t.
I know for a fact that many prominent planetary scientists think you’re full of shit. Whenever someone doesn’t go along with your thinking you use personal ad hominem attacks instead of providing references, and speaking to the science. And you persist in the public lie that David Morison is a supporter of the nemisis hypothesis, no matter how many times he has corrected you.
But of course you need to devalue his opinions, since he also thinks you’re delusional, and unreliable.
He, and some of the planetary scientists at NAU, and NMU tell me that I should just ignor your sorry delusional ass. But you make it hard when you keep bringing me up in public. Maybe I should just publish those emails in a blog of it’s own so I can plop down a public link to them every time you spew some more of your crap. Folks might be interested in reading what the scientists you keep bad-mouthing have to say about you.
Since I can prove you’re a common, ordinary, liar, I stand by every word in that Assiniboine thread. You are a liar, and a fraud, right up there with Velikovsky.
Just go fuck yer self Ed.
Dennis
Hello Dennis –
NASA has been understating the comet impact hazard for years.
Morrison has still not formally renounced Muller’s Nemesis hypothesis,
and has earlier presented himself as a neutral peer in debates on comet impact and injection mechanisms,when he has not been.
If the public safety were not involved in estimates of the comet impact hazard, this would all be academic.
A bolg detecated all to me? I’m flattered.
Why don’t you publish those emails, Dennis?
We could all use a good laugh.
Hi CL -
I am sorry that the histories have been so destroyed that you have been taken in by
a fronitersman’s creation, the “Allegewi”.
I have not called you a liar, simply confused.
If I recall correctly, Barbara Mann discussed the “Allegewi” fabrication and its abuse extensively.
The fictional creation of “Allegewi” is now being used by Nuagers, and they act like you.
So far, no tradition keeper has made any demands similar to yours, period, and further,
your way is not the way these matters are discussed, at least among those I know.
I did and do as best I could and can.
Given your behavior here, I simply ask you for what original mention of “Allegewi” you have, your nation and your teachers.
If you care to take this up at NAFPS, “New Age Frauds and Plastic Shamans” weith me, please feel free to do so.
But not here.
Hi Hermann –
Now that the usual is over with, on with the discussion
“The Mohawk flood is well-timed to YD, 13,350 BP, predecessor of Lake Ontario draining. The Kankakee Torrent must have been simultaneous, draining Lake Michigan. Will look for First Peoples accounts.”
13,350 – 2000 = 11,350 BCE, unless you are using the 1950 correction.
What is your source for that date?
The Mohawk people’s account of the drainage of Lake Agassiz is given here.
Whether that was down the Mohawk River valley, and when are still being analyzed.
Hi Ed –
for a moment there I was worried whether you would get to answer me, what with all the flak, AAA, SAC missiles, etc.
Sorry to be vague on the BP, my aging brain is weak on exact dates, when exactly do we believe the YDB event occurred? The 13,350 BP date is from Wikipedia, as most of my info is nowadays.
“The Mohawk people’s account of the drainage of Lake Agassiz is given here.” Can you give a link or http address? I looked through the Tusk and could not find it.
Ed; As always your civility does you credit. The same cannot be said of others??
To paraphrase Yogi Berra, ‘prediction is difficult, specially about the future’. lol
Much the same can be said reguarding devination of long past events when the evidence chain is muddied and broken. The best we can hope to do is sort the clues looking for a pattern which conforms to reality as we know it.
There is nothing wrong with telling someone, ‘you are an idiot’ in a heated debate if you have facts to back you up, and you expose your ‘facts’ for public scrutiny. When faced with unsupported sniping from the peanut gallery, it might be smarted to just ignore them.
I hope to be proven wrong, but I don’t expect a response from Ckicken Little.
There seems to be a lot of confusion about catastrophic discharge events from glacial lakes: L. Agassiz (modern Lakes Winnipeg, Manitoba), L. Iroquois (L. Ontario), L. Chicago (L. Michigan), etc. Exact times are not known apparently, but are estimated at or before the YDR boundary. The Older Dryas may be possible as well.
Also among times given is the Intra-Allerod cold period of 150 year duration, stated as “shortly before the YDR.” This seems very strange! How long is “shortly before??”
Papers and books found by web search (Google) often relate the flood events to Thermo-Haline Circulation disruption, a hypothetical cause of the deglaciation. From all that I have seen, this theory, which is a main competitor for cometary impact causation, appears to be complete bogus, having been disproved by recent results on the Gulf Stream which keeps the N Atlantic warm (details archived on the old CCNet).
It would not seem surprising if several of these events were simultaneous at the exact YDR boundary.
Hi George:
You manage an interesting blog, but I venture two clemency suggestions. First, this particular thread has perhaps aired Mr. West’s indiscretions long enough and it is getting long?? Second, in the top left corner of your web page is a box where you update a situation which will obviously not be addressed??
I spent the day well entertained @ …craterhunter… Mr. Cox has done a nice job on the site. As usual I have ideas on his theories, but he does not really seem to invite input from the peanut gallery. Not that I can fault him for it, given how CT and other blogs quickly devolve into sniping and bickering.
Hi Paul,
how sad, that last line above of yours. To remedy that deplorable situ, would you be willing and/or able to add to my inquiry into glacial lakes flooding dangerously, specifically for the three events mentioned in my penultimate post? Much is known about each, and the web offers info plentifully & readily.
E.g., for each of the three glacial lakes there are famous discharge chasm, cut by the torrents or overflows:
1. Lake Agassiz overtopped Big Stone Moraine and cut Traverse Gap, MN, and
on through the Minnesota River excavating an enormous gorge. Ironically, L. Agassiz is supposed to also have discharged toward the North Atlantic, which seems contradictory.
2, Lake Chicago discharged in the Kankakee Torrent toward the Illinois River and carved spectacular cliffs at Kankakee, also rearranging the course of the Ohio and Mississippi rivers.
3. Lake Iroquois drained for most of the last iceage through the Mohawk valley,
a West-East cut from Lake Ontario to Albany NY, there joining the Hudson River.
But there was also a great,catastrophic flood draining a large volume of water from Lake Iroquois in a short time, excavating roccks near Albany and elsewhere,
which happened “shortly before” the YDR events!!
The exact times seem to be much less well known than the gorges and waterfalls left by these catastrophic floods.
The GRAND HYPOTHESIS (GH) is that ALL THREE LAKES HAD A MAJOR DISCHARGE AT YDR BOUNDARY TIME, ~12,900 cal BP.
Please note that GH would seem to follow almost automatically from the YDR results proposed by our host George Howard’s teamk, i.e., a major ET (cometary) attack on the N American Ice Sheet. The impact explosion alone should have created enough air pressure as to blast the waters South. Additional surface melt would have added the floods.
AND: The marvelous thing is that the time usually about 13,000 BP is frequently cited for all three lakes!!
The Lake Agassiz discharge about 13 K BP is a RECENT scientific result, generally accepted, and went down the MacKenzie River into the Arctic Ocean. Maybe smaller amounts caused floods through Traverse Gap and also toward the N Atlanic Ocean.
Analogous results seem to be available for the Mohawk and Kankakee torrents. But these require better references than I could find.
REVERSE LOGIC: If the GH is true that would strengthen the George Howard team’s ET cometary impact hypothesis.. In other words, the best of all possible worlds..
Hee hee Herm; Maybe you should advertise in the classifieds. Position available: Resident glaciologist. Cosmic Tusk. No previous experience necessary.
I’m an intellectual diletant. I’ve never had any motivation for the hard work of solid research. Sorry, I don’t need a ‘job’.
As you seem to suggest; an allignment of these three discharges with YDB would be very interesting if true. Pretty hard to prove, since all four were cataclysmic events.
The problem with this type of study is that we are always looking through the wrong end of the telescope. Even events as recent as 13,000 years are very dim. And current computer simulations are no better than an ‘Artists reconstruction’. At present we cannot even reconstruct recent human history.
We build ‘Castles in the sky’ of fancy theories, with the most fragile of evidence. Perhaps some day I’ll work up the nerve to post some of mine.