Kerr Watch

Elapsed time since Richard Kerr failed to inform his Science readers of the confirmation of nanodiamonds at the YDB: 6 years, 3 months, and 3 days

Bob Kobres' A Nickel Pickle: Part D!

A NICKEL PICKLE

The Problems of Building High-Tech From a Meteoroid Wreck

by Bob Kobres

Part D

From the original on Bob Kobres’ site here.


Uniformitarianism succeeded in displacing catastrophism as the acceptable approach to unraveling Earth’s past, largely because slow moving glaciers better explained the presence of displaced boulders. Catastrophists had surmised that these large rocks were washed to where they were found during a great flood which, they believed, was brought about by the close approach or impact of a comet. Though this is a vast over simplification of the contest which took place between these two schools of thought, it serves to show why true blue uniformists have had trouble accepting evidence of catastrophic floods or impacts. A pertinent example of what happens when scientists reject a hypothesis on the basis of prior assumption rather than evidence is provided by the Spokane flood controversy–a debate which closely parallels the controversy over the origin of the Carolina Bays.

Geologist J. Harlen Bretz began his study of the peculiar geomorphic features found on the Columbia Plateau of eastern Washington in the summer of 1922. By 1932 he had become a “heretic” in the minds of many fellow geologists, for Bretz contended that the features which he called, collectively, the Channeled Scabland, were created by catastrophic floods. Judging his research completed, Bretz simply stepped out of the controversy his decade of work engendered and went on to other problems, advising his colleagues that only field evidence could, or should, decide the issue.

J. Harlen Bretz -- former Heretic, current Wise Man

Bretz was more fortunate than most researchers who have posited an unpopular hypothesis; he lived long enough to see his view accepted. One can imagine the smile that came to Bretz’s face, when, in 1965, this wise octogenarian received a lengthy telegram from an international team of geologists which began with “greetings and salutations” and ended with: “We are now all catastrophists.”

Victor R. Baker provides an excellent overview of this long, drawn-out debate in his article, “The Spokane Flood Controversy and the Martian Outflow Channels,” published in Science (Vol. 202, 22 Dec. 1978). Baker points out the similarity of features revealed on Mars by space-faring cameras and the Channeled Scabland, however, most of his paper focuses on the Spokane flood controversy. He ends the article with these words:

The Spokane flood controversy is both a story of ironies and a marvelous exposition of the scientific method. One cannot but be amazed at the efforts made to give a uniformitarian explanation for the Channeled Scabland and to uphold the framework of geology as it had been established in the writings of Hutton, Lyell, and Agassiz. The final irony may be that Bretz’s critics did not appreciate the scientific implications of Agassiz’s famous dictum, “study nature, not books.” Perhaps no geologist has understood and lived the spirit of those words more enthusiastically than J. Harlen Bretz.

It is difficult to envision the great flood, or floods Bretz’s research revealed. In some areas evidence indicates the surface of the water was over six hundred feet above ground level! One aqueous mountain was so vast that it manifested a surface gradient steep enough to push water, in surrounding river valleys, upstream more than seventy miles. Abrupt breaks in the icy confines of glacial Lake Missoula apparently caused this flooding. Exactly why this lake so suddenly lost its integrity is still open to debate. It is also yet unclear how many catastrophic floods occurred.

The last major deluge in this area took place over eleven thousand years ago; volcanic tephra from a dated eruption of Glacier Peak establishes this. Given the proven antiquity of this flooding episode, one can but marvel at the lucid, and if anything, understated account passed along to us by Chief Lot, a respected leader in the Spokane Indian community:

A long time ago the country around where Spokane Falls are now, and for many days’ journey east of it, was a large and beautiful lake. In the lake were many islands, and on its shores were many villages with many people. The Indians were well fed and happy, for there were plenty of fish in the lake and plenty of deer and elk in the country around it.

But one summer morning the people were startled by a rumbling and a shaking of the earth. The waters of the lake rose. Soon the waves became mountains of water that broke with fury against the shore.

Some of the water was flowing westward from the lake that remained. The people followed it until they came to a waterfall. Soon they saw salmon coming up the new river from the big river west of them. So they built a village beside the waterfall in the new river and made it their home.

Then the sun was blotted out, and darkness covered the land and the water. Terrified, the people ran to the hills to get away from the pounding water. For two days the earth rumbled and quaked. Than a rain of ashes began to fall. It fell for several weeks.

At last the ashes stopped falling, the waters of the lake became quiet, and the Indians came down from the hills. But soon the lake began to disappear. Dry land rose where the water had been. Many people died, for there was nothing to eat. The game animals had run away when the people fled to the hills, and no one dared go out on the lake to fish.

This legend was read by Major R.D. Gwydin at a meeting of the Spokane Historical Society, which was held toward the end of the last century–long before Bretz began his investigation. The full value of this account could not have been apparent then. Only results of recent geologic field work can provide the story with a time frame and so gauge its accuracy.

The fact that the legend tells of a great lake in the Spokane area which was badly drained via a new river created by the action of a catastrophic flood that occurred in conjunction with violent tectonic activity, including vulcanism, makes it difficult to misplace in time. This is almost certainly an eleven thousand year old eyewitness account of a, or the, Spokane flooding episode. Not only does this succinct report tell of a feature which required years of geologic field work to establish–the presence of a vast lake in the Spokane area–but it also reveals a detail which could not be easily proven by a contemporary geologic investigation. The assertion in the legend, that volcanic ash fell during this flood should be considered a valuable piece of collateral evidence which could shed further light on events of this time period. To date, geologists have only used the tephra deposited on these flood features as a means of limiting the time interval in which the flooding could have occurred. Accepting this Native American legend as a likely eyewitness account, rather than an ex-post-facto construct, might allow geologists to affix a fairly firm date to at least one major Spokane flood.

Folklore, like any large collection of literature (including scientific works) accumulated over time, contains valid observations along with suppositions. Generally, it is not difficult to recognize hypothesis in handed down tales, for early expositors’ rationalizations were often quite fanciful. The remains of giant herbivores inspired a variety of tales which sought to explain their presence. These stories varied from culture to culture, however, almost all have one thing in common; the given explanation is totally implausible and obviously an ex-post-facto fabrication.

J.P. MacLean provides an overview of notions engendered by finds of giant bones in his Mastodon, Mammoth and Man published in 1878:

The fossil bones of the elephant family when first discovered were ascribed either to human beings or else the demi-gods. The patella of a fossil elephant found in Greece was taken for the knee-bone of Ajax; the remains, thirteen feet in length, discovered by the Spartans at Tegea, were assigned to the body of Orestes; those, eighteen feet in length, discovered in the Isle of Ladea, were assigned to Asterious, son of Ajax; the bones discovered in the fourth century at Trapani, in Sicily, were ascribed to the pretended body of Polyphemus. So numerous were the discoveries, and so universally regarded to be those of human beings, that the literature of the middle ages, on this subject, is quite voluminous, and has been entitled “Gigantology.”

The gigantic bones discovered in 1705, thirty miles south of Albany, New York, were regarded as additional proof of the ancient stories relative to the past existence of a race of giants. One of the teeth was shown to Governor Dudley, of Massachusetts, who was “perfectly of opinion that the tooth will agree only to a human body, for whom the flood only could prepare a funeral; and without doubt he waded as long as he could keep his head above the clouds, but must, at length, be confounded with all other creatures.” The bones of the mastodon found near Santa Fe de Bogota, in the “Field of Giants,” were formerly taken for human remains. And, in like manner, the great quantity of bones of this animal found in the Cordilleras originated the Spanish tradition that Peru was formerly inhabited by men of colossal stature.

In 1456, in France, bones of pretended giants were noticed in the bed of the Rhone. Soon after other discoveries were made near Saint-Peirat, opposite Valence, which were cared for by the Dauphin, afterwards Louis XI, and sent to Bourges, where they long remained objects of curiosity in the interior of the Saint-Chapelle. In the same neighborhood, in 1564, two peasants noticed, on the banks of the Rhone, some great bones sticking out of the ground. Cassanion pronounced them giants’ bones, and this discovery doubtless caused him to write his treatise entitled “De Gigantibus.”

In the Canton of Lucerne, Switzerland, in the year 1577, a storm uprooted an oak near the cloisters of Reyden, exposing some large bones. These bones were examined by Felix Platen, then a celebrated physician and professor at Basle, who declared them to be the remains of a giant nineteen feet in height. On account of the conclusions of Platen the inhabitants of Lucerne adopted the image of the fabulous giant as the supporter of the city arms.

Otto de Guericke, a celebrated physicist and inventor of the air pump, in 1663, witnessed the discovery of the bones of the elephant, along with its enormous tusks, buried in the shelly-limestone, Germany. The tusks were taken for horns, and out of the remains Leibnitz constructed a strange animal, carrying a horn in the middle of its forehead, and in each jaw a dozen molar-teeth a foot long, and calling the creature the fossil unicorn. In his “Protogaea” he gave a description and a drawing of the imaginary animal. For more than thirty years the unicorn of Leibnitz was universally accepted throughout Germany, . . .

An interesting correlation on the Spanish belief, just mentioned comes from the “Terminal Essay” of Richard F. Burton’s famous Book of the Thousand Nights and a Night, published in 1886:

. . . Speaking of the arrival of the Giants at Point Santa Elena, [Peru] Cieza says, they were detested by the natives, because in using their women they killed them, and their men also in another way. All the natives declare that God brought upon them a punishment proportioned to the enormity of their offence. When they were engaged together in their accursed intercourse, a fearful and terrible fire came down from Heaven with a great noise, out of the midst of which there issued a shining Angel with a glittering sword, wherewith at one blow they were all killed and the fire consumed them. There remained a few bones and skulls which God allowed to bide unconsumed by the fire, as a memorial of this punishment.

Burton recognized this as a likely ” . . . Europeo-American version of the Sodom legend.” As the reader will soon see the American component of this tale could be much more ancient than the legend of Sodom and Gomorrah. In the above story, two disparate legends, each likely inspired by an actual impact event, though probably not the same one, have been merged to form a totally erroneous tale.

Thomas Jefferson was also intrigued by these commonly found large bones. By his time most well-informed people knew these to be the remains of large elephants; the question in Jefferson’s mind was: Were some still lurking about? In his Notes on Virginia, first published in 1787, Jefferson reports:

Thomas Jefferson -- Mammoth Hunter

Our quadrupeds have been mostly described by Linnaeus and Mons. de Buffon. Of these the mammoth, or big buffalo, as called by the Indians, must certainly have been the largest. Their tradition is, that he was carnivorous, and still exists in the northern parts of America. A delegation of warriors from the Delaware tribe having visited the Governor of Virginia, during the revolution, on matters of business, after these had been discussed and settled in council, the Governor asked them some questions relative to their country, and among others, what they knew or had heard of the animal whose bones were found at the Saltlicks on the Ohio. Their chief speaker immediately put himself into an attitude of oratory, and with a pomp suited to what he conceived the elevation of his subject, informed him that it was a tradition handed down from their fathers, “That in ancient times a herd of these tremendous animals came to the Big-bone licks, and began an universal destruction of the bear, deer, elks, buffaloes, and other animals which had been created for the use of the Indians; that the Great Man above, looking down and seeing this, was so enraged that he seized his lightning, descended on the earth, seated himself on a neighboring mountain, on a rock of which his seat and the print of his feet are still to be seen, and hurled his bolts among them till the whole were slaughtered, except the big bull, who presenting his forehead to the shafts, shook them off as they fell; but missing one at length, it wounded him in the side; whereon, springing round, he bounded over the Ohio, over the Wabash, the Illinois, and finally over the great lakes, where he is living at this day.”

Jefferson included this native narrative because it lent support to the idea that these large animals were still extant; he did not accept the notion of total extinction. This is made plain later in the same work, where, referring to his list of quadrupeds common to Europe and America, Jefferson states:

. . . It may be asked, why I insert the mammoth, as if it still existed? I ask in return, why I should omit it, as if it did not exist? Such is the economy of nature, that no instance can be produced, of her having permitted any one race of her animals to become extinct; of her having formed any link in her great work so weak as to be broken. To add to this, the traditionary testimony of the Indians, that this animal still exists in the northern and western parts of America, would be adding the light of a taper to that of the meridian sun. Those parts still remain in their aboriginal state, unexplored and undisturbed by us, or by others for us. He may as well exist there now, as he did formerly where we find his bones.

Jefferson supposed that these large animals, probably carnivorous, had recently abandoned eastern American due to a general depletion of wild game, which, in turn, he felt, was caused by the enhanced hunting capability of natives armed with European weapons.

Obviously, this early champion of freedom saw the ‘stormy’ part of this native legend as nothing more than flamboyant free verse, added to spice up the story. Recall that, when Jefferson wrote his Notes on Virginia, well-informed individuals ‘knew’ that rocks could not fall from the sky. The mention of a “Great Man above” hurling ‘bolts’ at the long-nosed beasts from a mountain top probably caused a chuckle to issue from the great statesman as he first took this legend in–“How Jovian!”–he likely thought. Jefferson would have never imagined that this part of the story could have any historic value, however, it most probably does.

The reader can most clearly appreciate a likely connection between this legend and the formation of the Carolina Bays by comparing the geographic location given in the fullest version of this story with a map showing the probable ‘footprint’ of the suspected impact event. This particular rendering of the tale was provided, sans translator, by an English speaking member of the Delaware tribe around the turn of the century:

Long ago, in time almost forgotten, when the Indians and the Great Spirit knew each other better, when the Great Spirit would appear and talk with the wise men of the Nation, and they would counsel with the people; when every warrior understood the art of nature, and the Great Spirit was pleased with his children; long before the white man came and the Indians turned their ear to the white man’s God; when every warrior believed that bravery, truth, honesty, and charity were the virtues necessary to take him to the happy hunting-grounds; when the Indians were obedient and the Great Spirit was interested in their welfare there were mighty beasts that roamed the forests and plains.

The Yah Qua Whee or mastodon that was placed here for the benefit of the Indians was intended as a beast of burden and to make itself generally useful to the Indians. This beast rebelled. It was fierce, powerful and invincible, its skin being so strong and hard that the sharpest spears and arrows could scarcely penetrate it. It made war against all other animals that dwelt in the woods and on the plains which the Great Spirit had created to be used as meat for his children–the Indians.

A final battle was fought and all the beasts of the plains and forests arrayed themselves against the mastodon. The Indians were also to take part in this decisive battle if necessary, as the Great Spirit had told them they must annihilate the mastodon.

The great bear was there and was wounded in the battle.

The battle took place in the Ohio Valley, west of the Alleghanies. The Great Spirit descended and sat on a rock on the top of the Alleghanies to watch the tide of battle. Great numbers of mastodons came, and still greater numbers of the other animals.

The slaughter was terrific. The mastodons were being victorious until at last the valleys ran in blood. The battlefield became a great mire, and many of the mastodons, by their weight, sank in the mire and were drowned.

The Great Spirit became angry at the mastodon and from the top of the mountain hurled bolts of lightning at their sides until he killed them all except one large bull, who cast aside the bolts of lightning with his tusks and defied everything, killing many of the other animals in his rage until at last he was wounded. Then he bounded across the Ohio river over the Mississippi, swam the Great Lakes, and went to the far north where he lives to this day.

There was a terrible loss of the animals that were made for food for the Indians in that battle, and the Indians grieved much to see it so the Great Spirit caused in remembrance of that day, the cranberry to come and grow in the marshes to be used as food, its coat always bathed in blood, in remembrance of that awful battle.

Traces of that battle may yet be seen. The marshes and mires are still there, and in them the bones of the mastodon still are found as well as the bones of many other animals.

Though the geographic correlation suggests that this legend is rooted in fact, it would not be possible to rule out a coincidentally fortuitous ex-post-facto origin for this story without additional evidence. Amazingly there is a rock hard exhibit which may rule this possibility out.

  • The Red Rock River Valley in southwest Montana is a crater field of multiple, oblique, low angle impacts coming from the southwest. And into the sedimentary deposits of the valley floor. The sedimentary deposits there date to the late Pleistocene, early Holocene. The ejecta from the oval crater at 44.642265, -112.077185 was blown over the top of, and is blanketing, one of the ancient meanders of the river.

    The ejecta covering that ancient meander should provide an excellent stratigraphic horizon for dating the event.

    Considering the trajectory, Glacial Lake Missoula was down range.

  • 44.664261 -111.940163 2.025 km elevation, a very similar field

    44.632155 -112.046756 2.019 km elevation

    44.629973 -111.998401 2.018 km elevation

  • First of all, a wonderful tribute by Bob Kobres to J. Harlan Bretz, who deserves all the praise he now receives. I only wish that more scientists would at least keep in mind the important and ever present role that catastrophes play in shaping the Earth. It remains much more than most care to admit (hence much of the reluctance to accept the role of impacts in the not too distant past).Interesting too, is the coverage of native legends,and the recognition that they provide very valuable information (or at least they can do) to those who look.I do think however that there is in this otherwise very good summary some confusion (perhaps E.P. will concur) between the mammoth and mastadon bones with actual giant humans that did seem to exist in the past, even here in North America.

  • Cerro el Colorado, 29.245451 -102.178033, 1.742 km el high, 1.525 km el low central crater with half ring of tilted pale bedrock, 1.000 km el green lake draining NE, 14.5 km blasted area size NS: Cox: Murray 2010.11.11

    29.245451 -102.178033
    Cerro el Colorado,
    1.742 km el high,
    1.525 km el low central crater,
    1.000 km el green lake draining NE,
    14.5 km blasted area size NS,
    good ground photos available via Google Earth.

    I found this unique crater with NASA WorldWind 1.4
    2010.11.11, about 120 km E of Big Bend National Park.
    Google Maps has excellent images and Terrain map.

    The central mountain shows a half-ring of tilted pale sedimentary strata, the same color as the bare rock all around — may be the result of a fairly very high pressure, density, and temparature air burst plasma torch tornado that was stationary for a few minutes.

    geoablation ridge S of Cerro el Colorado 28.986 -101.941: Cox: Murray 2010.11.11

    geoablative impact melt draped over plateau, ~20 m thick, S of Cerro el Colorado 29.057 -101.967: Cox: Murray 2010.11.11

  • E.P. Grondine

    Rod, what we need here at the tusk is a topic on oblique impacts where these researchers can communicate.

  • George Howard

    E.P. and Rod, if you would like to do a guest blog or give me background for same I will post on the subject of oblique impacts to give you a start for discussion….

  • Oblique impacts are only part of it. There is also airburst scarring to consider. And there are multiple crater fields in West Texas, and New Mexico, with thousands of pristine impact craters averaging about ~100 meters diameter that are perfectly obvious in Google Earth, or LandSat image data. But no one is talking about them.

    I’ve been told that “Most geologists agree that large multiple fragment cluster impact events are highly unlikly.” But that is exactly what we see in the Odessa crater field. Or the hundreds of craters we see near Vaughn NM.

    If sso many obvious craters can be ignored, even though people are living, and working among them, what chance does anything out of the ordinary have of being considered?

  • Hermann Burchard

    Ed, All,
    when did Glacial Lake Agassiz drain? Was it at YDB time, and how certain are we of the fact? Here is an article that states a date at 13.95K yrs BP:
    http://geology.gsapubs.org/content/35/7/667

    BIG STONE MORAINE at Traverse Gap, MN, was topped and GLACIAL RIVER WARREN outflow channel dug past St Paul, MN.

    Dennis Cox believes Lake Agassiz may have evaporated in the most part. This raises the energy issue again, needs giant impact.

    Rod Chilton: Thanks for correcting me on suggesting drainage down St Lawrence.

    Ed, definitely multiple Taurid frag impacts are chief suspects for the confused evidence, polar as well as equatorial, both hemispheres.

    About Alaska muck beds with mass burial of fress kills (read in
    Ed’s book, progress slow): Very few mechanisms can cause this, if not floods. At high altitudes? In Siberia? What could have done this? A direct cometary blast a la Dennis Cox would have incinerated the animals, not broken, then frozen their carcasses.
    Are there reports of burn marks?

    Also of interest, Southern events out-of-synch:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meltwater_pulse_1A

  • I should point out that I put those oblique craters up because the post mentions Harlan Bretz’s work in eastern Washington. Those oblique craters in southwest Montana can be confidently dated to the late Pleistocene/early Holocene. And their trajectory, and timing, imply that the impact event that put them there, may have had something to do with the breakup of the ice damn on the Clark Fork River, in northern Idaho, and the mega floods of the Channeled Scablands.

  • E.P. Grondine

    Hi George –

    Rod and I would prefer to discuss Lake Agassiz drainage. I think Rod could provide a summary for starting that discussion; its more his field than mine.

    I think that there needs to be a place where the oblique impact researchers such as Dennis and the others may communicate. They need a separate heading, as do the Saginaw Bay researchers.

  • Hello all

    Dark matter, carbon spherules, craters, scars, structures, elliptic palaeolagoons, rock art (etc) and myths, all seem interfaces of the same cosmic phenomenon that marked the end of the Pleistocene, about 12,900 BP.

    Like many others myths that seem to report the same thing, “dragons” are more like meteors of fragments of a shattered comet, and meteors from a stream of its meteoroids.

    Dragons spit fire, as well as the flying snakes spitting fire, a huge plasma jet toward Earth like SANDIA simulations showed.

    Dragons are fast, unpredictable, dangerous and powerful. Dragons can reach anywhere with the destructive power of atomic bombs, and reached all the seas, oceans and continents, leave a mark, bruise, craters, palaeolagoons.

    The flock of heavenly dragons and their cries (shock wave) should have reached a higher number, millions of flying and falling dragons, incinerating the earth and villages, burning forests, triggering tsunamis, melting glaciers, poisoning the waters with their hot CN rich plasma jets. Dragons are terrible heaven beasts!

    All have seen and survived the catastrophic End-Pleistocene cosmic event, from a massive meteor storm, the people could have recorded this history on the rocks around the world, or incorporated to their ways of the world understanding, transforming the myths, legends, beliefs.

    A common myth among the indigenous Tupi people, which Tupana: is a heavenly spirit, responsible for thunder and lightning, he is also associated with rains.

    On the interior of State of Pernambuco in Brazil, a study of Tupi´s toponymy under the final trajectory (60 km) from the Panela crater´s projenitor meteor, in addition of near Sierra Tupan, we identified place names like Tupanaci: Tupan mother’s house or village.

    Thematic meteor related rocks arts found in the region, if related, could be the reports of a daytime cosmic event occurred around the year 1200 BC. The Tupana event on Pernambuco could may represent a confirmation of a much older End-Pleistocene Tupana past myth (10,900 BC), from a cyclical cosmic event.

    Tupana (or Tupan) is not exactly a god, but it is a manifestation of a god in the shape of the sound of thunder, whose voice was heard in the storms, its bright reflection was Tupanberaba, or lightning. The indigenous believed to be the god of creation, the god of light. His abode in the Sun, like its distant relative Greek Phaeton. Tupana is the celestial spirit of the thunder and the lightning, perhaps a South American cousin of Nordic Thor as well.

    Thor was also known as Donna, Donar or Donner. This god was widely worshiped by Vikings and taken as “Lord of Thunder, Lord of heaven and Beneficial Rains, Lord of Thunder, lightning and storms; revered as the” Prince of the Gods “, for presiding over and ruling the sky, thunder, air, wind, rain, storms, good weather, crops, fruits of the earth, also fighting disease and hunger, and is associated with deeds of superhuman strength. Was supposed to protect men and gods of the negative influence of the giants, and defender of Asgard against their enemies.

    More about Tupi toponymy final trajectory map of Panela crater, on the site:
    http://sites.google.com/site/cosmopier/palaeometeorstream/home

    I find it important, despite the emphasis some research, keep the discussion broad and permanent. Also, try adding more scientists from several continents, with different approaches. My first reference was the multiple Bob Kobres 15 years ago.

    best regards for survivors
    pierson

  • George Howard

    Great post, Pierson, thanks.

  • Hi Ed, George, and others too: Yes, George, I think Ed is correct, I am far more acquainted with the Agassiz flood and other meltwater sources than oblique impacts. However, I will try to put together a short summary the Taurid meteor stream impact characteristics,learned mostly from William Napier and some other astronomical papers.I will also Ed, put something together over the next little while on meltwater fluxes timing and amounts etc. Stay tuned!

  • Hi Rod,

    A summary of the predicted impact characteristics of the Taurids, as stated by Clube & Napier would be a good thing. But there is a major problem with the standard, 19th century, uniformitarian geophysical model that, is effectively blocking any progress in the Earth sciences with regards to impact research. And the catastrophes that happened at the Younger Dryas boundary layer.

    Harlan Bretz showed that the uniformitarian, gradualist, model was wrong with regards to a small portion of the Pacific Northwest. His data was clear, and empirical. Yet it took 40 years, or so, for the Earth sciences to acknowledge that, if a Geologist wants to understand what happened to the Channeled scablands of eastern Washington, he must first disregard everything that came before Bretz, and start from scratch. Bretz’s revolutionary work was founded on aerial photography, and observable mass movements.

    The more I study evidences of impact related, geologically recent, catastrophic mass movements on this continent, the more obvious the complete breakdown of the standard uniformitarian model regarding North America becomes. And the more doubtful I am of the ability of this generation of scientists to unravel the mess. Because Sir Charles Lyell wasn’t just a little bit wrong about geology in the Pacific Northwest. He was almost completely wrong, and hopelessly naïve, about the entire continent. And, by extension, the rest of the world. I doubt we will live long enough to see the Earth sciences except, and acknowledge, that easily demonstrable fact.

    We have the data collection technologies, and the first rate scientists, to work out exactly what happened to trigger the YD cooling, the megafaunal extinctions, and all the other catastrophic evidences, almost in a single season. But the events of the YD, and related catastrophes over the succeeding millennia, were the most devastating catastrophes in many millions of years. They cannot be understood from any existing, 19th century, uniformitarian model. Attempting to do so is futile. So, figuring out exactly what happened to the ground isn’t going to be the difficult, or time consuming, part. Identifying, uprooting, and throwing out, the unchecked, and unsupportable, assumptions of the 19th century, that are blocking progress, is.

  • chicken little

    WOW EXCELLENT DENNIS!

    YES THEY HAVE TO COMPLETELY START OVER.
    THEY JUST DON’T KNOW WHAT THEY DON’T KNOW!
    I MEAN NO ONE KNOWS WHAT THEY DON’T KNOW!
    TIME TO DISCARD ALL BOXES. WITH IT THE WORSHIP OF HUMANITIES LOGICAL ABILITIES.. THIS SHOULD ALL BE PROOF ENOUGH THAT THEY SUCK AT “UNFETTERED IMAGINATION..” UNFETTERED BY EYE WITNESSED HISTORY.

    YOU SEE THEY CAN’T TELL US THERE WAS NO FLOOD 6000 YEARS GO OR LESS ..
    WHEN THEY CAN’T TELL YOU REALLY WHAT HAPPENED WITH IN THE RECORDED HISTORY OF JUST 2800 AND 3200 YEARS AGOI

    NOW HONESTLY CAN THEY? IF THEY DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY HAVE, AND DON’T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED OR WHAT IS LEFT OVER TO EXPLAIN!
    WAY PAST TIME TO BURN THOSE BOXES THEY CREATED TO FILE THEIR IMAGINATIONS IN..

  • E.P. Grondine

    Actually, chicken little, we must keep humanity’s logic even more firmly in place, and that is a very tough struggle.

    Dennis wrote:

    “We have the data collection technologies, and the first rate scientists, to work out exactly what happened to trigger the YD cooling, the megafaunal extinctions, and all the other catastrophic evidences, almost in a single season.”

    Dennis, its going to take longer than a single season, and its going to take both research money and a place for the rapid exchange of information.

    “But the events of the YD, and related catastrophes over the succeeding millennia, were the most devastating catastrophes in many millions of years. They cannot be understood from any existing, 19th century, uniformitarian model. Attempting to do so is futile.”

    No. While it is true that they can not be understood by the 19th century uniformitarian model, there were far more devastating impact events in the last seven million years.

    “So, figuring out exactly what happened to the ground isn’t going to be the difficult, or time consuming, part.”

    Actually, it is very difficult and time consuming, and expensive.

    “Identifying, uprooting, and throwing out, the unchecked, and unsupportable, assumptions of the 19th century, that are blocking progress, is.”

    Let me see if I can explain this for you.

    There was a uniformitarian model, and it explained a lot of data. But there was new data found which it could not explain.

    In genetics, gradual evolution changed to punctuated equilibrium.

    In geology, uniformitarianism is evolving to include impact processes.

    Anthropology is changing to account for new data as well.

    What this means for you is that you simply can not definitively claim every circular or oblique feature is a recent impact, without establishing with field data that it is. I know you’re excited, but when you do this, you look like a complete fool to those outside the field.

  • We are just going to have to agree to disagree. I think I’ll stick to my guns, and be a fool Ed. The uniformitarioan model does not work. It never realy did.

    And working out what happens to the ground in an impact event is not as complicated as you think.

  • Hermann Burchard

    New uniformitarian and new catastrophist geologies may yet join forces (see the two Wikipedia articles). Please observe that plate tectonics already has changed this science away from Lyell. For the time being, here is the new HETERODOX GEOLOGY: NO IMPACTS, NO PLATE TECTONICS. This is based on Chatterjee’s well-grounded view that the Shiva impact split India from Africa, opening up the Arabian Sea, part of the Indian Ocean. The impact left ample testimony in the crust, including the Reunion Island hotspot, Mumbai crater (500 km), connecting island chains. Similarly, the Azores hotspot is a witness to the end- triassic impact that split America from Europe-Africa and opened up the Atlantic Ocean. The huge CAMP – Central Atlantic Magmatic Province (LIP) on four continents is a remnant of events. Etc, etc, see my guest blog on COSMIC TUSK on the Siberian hotspot track, quoted on Wikipedia (see footnote 19):
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotspot_(geology)

    Very likely Australia split from the rest of Gondwana Land by an impact that left the Woodleigh crater in NW Australia, with Shark Bay the incipient part of the hotspot track, and Kerguelen-Broken Ridge the corresponding LIP, Ninety East Ridge the hotspot track.

    None of this is accepted Orthodox Geology, but it will be eventually. For now, this is the New Heterodox Geology. It’s part uniform *inbetween impacts,* part catastrophic when comets impact our dear old planet Earth, and the resulting super-volcanoes make their resurgent caldera eruptions, U R 2 NO.

  • chicken little

    wrong Ed

    the kind of logic that has convinced humanity that a mammoth lived on glaciers is ignorant and thazt kind of ” Logic ” that dates radioactive events by soils levels and artifacts i htier own special circular ways.. when those levels may have been effected at least 3 times or more in just the last 6000 years in mega events … is not real logic.
    that kind of logic is foolishness and ignorance disguised as intelligence.. you want to play there as obviuosly you do want to.. I do not thank you anyway. personally give me greelk myths over modern wild a@@ imagination..
    it is time to dump the circular reasoning that
    proves only human stupidity and ignorance!
    I do say for a believer in science’s form of Logic’ . you do get some credit

    you were wise enough to look at eye witnessed events !
    but just because you listened to eye witnesses recordings and with it hints of truth …doesn’t mean you are a believer in recorded history, which holds “the truth” you see truth is holy thing .. not anyones aggravation constipation, imagination ,or violation of the truth will ever be holy .
    so I understand WHAT DENNIS IS SAYING HERE !
    I do think you need to think about this!
    JUST BECAUSE YOU WERE SMART ENOUGH TO LISTEN TO MEN WHO HOLD history and thus the TRUTH that is hiding there as HOLY… DOESNT MAKE YOUR alterations and imaginations and scientations HOLY!
    because those things we do do it are not holy!
    so your scientisms truth is touchable..

  • E.P. Grondine

    Hello Dennis –

    While the uniformitarian model does not work (as you put it) that does not mean that yours does.

    Working out what happens on the ground in any impact is very complex, and I can only hope that with time you will learn this.

  • E.P. Grondine

    Hi Chicken Little –

    What has been interesting to me over the years to watch is the way that the reaalization that “small” impacts occur almost inevitably affects any individual’s prior religious beliefs.

    I spent a long time arguing with people whose religious belief is that man must fly to Mars immediately.

    Clearly, this is a spiritual matter for you. “HOLY” as you put it.

    As I am not a spiritual guide, and rely on others for that. I don’t think anyone here at the Tusk will offer themselves as a spiritual guide for you either.

    Since that is the case, may I suggest to you that you try seeking spiritual guidance from others elsewhere?

  • chicken little

    no sir but everytime dennis questions your assumptions and time tables , were you not trying to stand on holy ground and claiming he is hateful of native americans? ed what anyone thinks about truth isn’t ever holy!
    your and science opinions of time which is based on and based in dirt levels and artifacts in those dirt levels is very touchable and in no way holy!

    eyewitnessed history has to be explained sufficiently and until it is science and their believers their d=umb shite theories have no right to tell us what happened before 6000 years ago,.

    Just the bible alone and that doesn’t include other peoples stories records at least 5 maybe 6 possible volcanic and or impact cataclysmic events yet to be explained by anyone .
    Then the scientific fools of the world who are trying to use dirt levels for their time tables to date their theories of the events their imaginations have invented .. and they try and measure radioactivity in elements they have not one clue what the rules/laws are of any one of those many events! now do they..
    NO not a good idea now is it!
    of course not ….. not when they have not even attempted explanations of any of those things in recorded history!
    you can make all kinds of theories based on dirt levels.. but no one with any grasp of real reality and history based in eye witnesses and recorded history of any kind is going to take any of it serious if it is timing is based in dirt levels and carbon and radioactive elements…. no no no .

  • Hermann Burchard

    New uniformitarian and new catastrophist geologies may yet join forces (see the two Wikipedia articles). Please observe that plate tectonics already has changed this science away from Lyell. For the time being, here is the new HETERODOX GEOLOGY: NO IMPACTS, NO PLATE TECTONICS. This is based on Chatterjee’s well-grounded view that the Shiva impact split India from Africa, opening up the Arabian Sea, part of the Indian Ocean. The impact left ample testimony in the crust, including the Reunion Island hotspot, Mumbai crater (500 km), connecting island chains. Similarly, the Azores hotspot is a witness to the end- triassic impact that split America from Europe-Africa and opened up the Atlantic Ocean. The huge CAMP – Central Atlantic Magmatic Province (LIP) on four continents is a remnant of events. Etc, etc, see my guest blog on COSMIC TUSK on the Siberian hotspot track, quoted on Wikipedia (see footnote 19):
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotspot_(geology)

    Very likely Australia split from the rest of Gondwana Land by an impact that left the Woodleigh crater in NW Australia, with Shark Bay the incipient part of the hotspot track, and Kerguelen-Broken Ridge the corresponding LIP, Ninety East Ridge the hotspot track.

    None of this is accepted Orthodox Geology, but it will be eventually. For now, this is the New Heterodox Geology. It’s part uniform *inbetween impacts,* part catastrophic when comets impact our dear old planet Earth, and the resulting super-volcanoes make their resurgent caldera eruptions.