Exploring abrupt climate change induced by comets and asteroids during human history

Plato: A Man Before (and after) His Time

Atlantis (in Greek, Ἀτλαντὶς νῆσος, “island of Atlas“) is a legendary island first mentioned in Plato‘s dialogues Timaeus and Critias.

In Plato’s account, Atlantis was a naval power lying “in front of the Pillars of Hercules” that conquered many parts of Western Europe and Africa 9,000 years before the time of Solon, or approximately 9600 BC. After a failed attempt to invade Athens, Atlantis sank into the ocean “in a single day and night of misfortune”.

[See 12,974 Before Present]

Scholars dispute whether and how much Plato’s story or account was inspired by older traditions. Some scholars argue Plato drew upon memories of past events such as the Thera eruption or the Trojan War, while others insist that he took inspiration from contemporary events like the destruction of Helike in 373 BC[1] or the failed Athenian invasion of Sicily in 415–413 BC.

The possible existence of a genuine Atlantis was discussed throughout classical antiquity, but it was usually rejected and occasionally parodied by later authors. As Alan Cameron states: “It is only in modern times that people have taken the Atlantis story seriously; no one did so in antiquity”.[2] While little known during the Middle Ages[citation needed], the story of Atlantis was rediscovered by Humanists in the Early Modern period. Plato’s description inspired the utopian works of several Renaissance writers, like Francis Bacon‘s “New Atlantis“. Atlantis inspires today’s literature, from science fiction to comic books to films. Its name has become a byword for any and all supposed advanced prehistoric lost civilizations.

121 Responses

  1. The elements Plato used in constructing his moral tale of Atlantis are extensively covered in my book “Man and Impact in the Americas”. If you do not have a copy to hand, there is a link to the cosmic tusk special on the right side of the screen in front of you.

    In addition to the materials presented in that book, see also my comments here on the Baucom site:
    http://www.palanth.com/legacy/index.php/topic,1276.0.html

    linked to here:
    http://www.csasi.org/states/nsc/baucom/baucom15.htm

    The USGS cores from the Carolina’s should be showing this same strata between Savanah River and Tuscarora occupation.

    This is important, as the southeastern votes should be enough to focus NASA on dealing with the impact hazard at an appropriate level. The YD impact has not done it (yet).

  2. why when I was told what happened?
    I will stick with eye witnessed and recorded world history.. not wild guesses based and subbased and subsubsub based in circular and the unlimited
    ” knowledge of good and evil” or ” or everything else under the sun” known today as man ‘logic” abilities .. which is really just some wild imaginations.
    and how come plato is respected with in every other field and subject … wel except this one.

    the sad as hell part is the Plato yes missed the timing .. because man so narsisitic he doesn’t even understand the years he is here or even one minute into the future , much less before he is here.
    but worse is the fact that it is not only Plato in all the world who has stores and records of missing , moved , scattered , or sunk lands.. and even swimming turtle islands.
    and for the fools in kings clothes who want to poop on anything that their little minds can’t grasp …. which appears to be just about about everything around them…… except monkies and monkey business. I suggest that they all do alot more reading and not “Scientism ” and that religions Books!
    because they are truly clueless.
    and no Mr ED I will not read your book until you and the rest of all those cronies around explain eye witnesses and recorded history! because I do not think it is “logical” to go against eye witnessses! you take eye witnessed events and strech them into your religion. which is nothing more than YOUR imagination! you label LOGIC and I will call it Magic.. “ppof we have created time with less than a breath….”
    no definitely not wise to go against eye witnesses .. … and down right insulting to the eye witnesses.. and that is not smart ..no matter how smart everyone claims to be.

  3. Chicken little –

    Can you please learn to write intelligibly? Your comments make so little sense it is incredible. Not only do you spell atrociously, but each sentence within itself makes little sense. You don’t reference what you are talking about – evidently expecting us to search out what you are discussing. We shouldn’t have to do that or to guess. You should tell us specifically what it is you are referring to. You apparently are lazy in your writing, expecting others to look inside your head. Most of the time consecutive sentences do not connect with each other, so you are all over the place, and you make no contribution to rational thought here.

    If you are going to comment, can you please at least make some sense? And please try to get rid of your sloppy thinking processes. Hit-and-miss comments, jumping around, incomplete sentences – did you pay any attention in grammar class at all? Do you actually think we read your comments with anything but despair?

    I read your comment above and all I saw was a bunch of ranting, sloppy thinking and horrible incoherence.

    Please make some sense.

  4. First MR Garcia I wasn’t speaking to you, if I did you would know. so iit bothers you.. don’t read my stuff if it drives you crazy!
    second
    if you don’t

    Maybe Mr Ed will get this nice and clear.
    Mr Ed you stole native stories and re interrupted them and then stretched them to fit your context. and then made your interpretations “holy” and act as if you honor the stories . when it is only your interpretations you honor or think of as holy!!
    you see That is wrong.

    The stories have their own context and you have no right to twist and USE them for your purposes, or to profit from them.

    Science in any of it’s many forms has no right to take them from their context and profit from them either .
    Science and it’s religion Scientism .. does these kinds of thieving ways all the time .. by using phrases like
    ” garden of eden” or genetic ” Adam and Eve” or just any term or eye witnessed concept .. it corrupts and twists to fit their constructs and theories trying to give their crappy versions their reality validity . as it seems to care not who or what it offended, now does it!
    the disrespectful arrogant windbags then force our youth to believe that crap in those temples we all call “higher education”.

    and what’s up with like using and or created their terms like archea”logic” or geo”logic” etc because if it didn’t’ say” logic” in the word , no one would have guessed! because it is a case of they definitely they ” protest too much” and think way more of themselves than they ought!
    It has to stop.
    so stop it!
    it is disrespectful!!!!!
    Not to me,
    you all can be disrespectful to me and I will be too you.. but really do you want to be to the eye witnesses . because they will have to be reckoned with someday!
    do you really want to offend those who saw these things and then lived through it?
    I do think you need to re-think a few things!

    is that clear enough to YA’LL!
    adios all you smarty pants!

  5. chicken little –

    1.) At least you wrote in sentences and complete thoughts for once. Thanks. Though I disagree with some of what you say, at least it was reasonably clear what it was you were saying. Complete sentences are much appreciated. Keep up the good work.

    2.) Few people are as disdainful of scientists than I am. Most here have some issues with science as it is presented. We wouldn’t be her if we weren’t. We are trying here, though, to dialog with them as much as possible. But if you – or we – don’t present rational thought in your (or our) abuse of them, what is your reason for even opening your (our) mouth(s)? You are just going to get blown off as some sloppy thinker who doesn’t have any facts at your disposal. So on this site I think the bar is set fairly high to a.) post comments that are on-topic, and b.) make some sense.

    3.) Ed only put his own translations in his books in a few places. Who are you to tell Ed he doesn’t have the right to translate those for himself? As I recall, when he varied from some standard translation he seemed to have pointed the variance out. In addition, all historians put things in the best light for the interpretations of history they are selling; Ed is no exception to that. That is what every historian has – his own understanding of what really happened. And no two understandings are the same, and certainly no two translations are the same, either. So don’t get your knickers in a twist, chicken little. If you have better translations, let’s see them. Actually Ed’s translations were the first intelligible translations of indigenous accounts I’ve seen. I was reluctant to even read them, so many have been so unclear. I much appreciated his clarity – and the background notes he included. If I recall, the Mayan codices were mistranslated for several decades before they got today’s versions – and who is to say that 40 years from now they won’t overthrow all of today’s versions? In ancient texts, there is no real translations – every one of them is awash with the slant of its translator. My point being then: What’s new? And if that is all you have to hit Ed with, he is way ahead of the game.

  6. Excuse me, Chicken, I never “stole” any Native American histories. The ones I quoted had already been shared with others, and I passed them on exactly as they reached me, with my commentary clearly separated and indicated.

    As far as profit goes, one does not pass on histories for profit anymore than one sells ceremony or medicine, at least among those I associate with.

    As far as use goes, I don’t see anything wrong with passing on the ancestors warnings.

    As far as use goes, I can not return the land to the peoples, but I can return the peoples to the lands.

    Now what exactly is it that is bothering you, Chicken?

  7. Deu 32:7
    Remember the days of old; consider the generations long past. Ask your father and he will tell you, your elders, and they will explain to you.”

    Gosh I am so sorry to the one or two maybe three people who will read this site that truly believe this above verse !
    you know I wasn’t and am not talking to you right!
    because that is not who I am talking to or about!

    but for those who saw the continents for the first time and gave us
    ‘ tectonic plate theory ‘ or brow beat the world with it.. and with it the billions of years they stole from mankind . when reality is the atlantic as we know it was formed in a day or maybe two. will they be taking back those billions of years they stole? of course not that demon is out of the bag and playing the fool just for them..

    or when those who study “mankind “in all his beastliness … and they looked and saw quadrupeds. when the truth is man was always HUGE with 6 fingers and toes and two rows of teeth that seem to be able to replace themselves and with those teeth built/created to chew forever .
    yes the number of man is 6 not five.. created on the the sixth day… just like someone’s grandpa or grandma once said or wrote these same tales and all over the world the same story , just a different verse.. and we are the only thing between lucy and the giants who were created to live for ever .. and we are headed toward lucy!

    for those who looked at Gobekli Tepe and saw ” the Garden of Eden”,oh but just a stolen name . to give their theory validity.. when it in reality is a animal breeding farm at the lowest lands below the “mountains of Ararat”, my gosh who might have had a giant animal breeding farm near the” Mountains of Ararat” ? .

    or maybe to the ones who looked at dirt and saw a way to steal even more zillions of years … and then date it by carbon , dirt levels and radioactivity..
    dang as if nothing has ever happened and never anything was burned , and nothing was moved. as if nothing radioactive has ever come from the sky…as if the foundations of the earth have never been shaken, and never any kinds of new elements brought with those objects..
    ..and oh the mocking because they say there never has there been” missing”,” sunken” or “moved” lands or islands full of mysteries and giants and gorgeous long lived people and beasts . oh yes they say those are just more ‘ myth’s”

    oh yes those blind as bats who saw chinese when they saw native americans and set out to prove it…. and ignorant as hell itself saw what they wanted to see.. and their version of their reality has been weighed and found wanting.
    so Will they be taking any of that stuff they ‘saw’ with their Logic” back? of course not! but all of hell is dancing now boys!
    now these blind as bats..want to get ahold of the all the worlds “the grandpa’s and grandma’s stories” be those stories written and recorded in a book or be they given orally ..
    …I sure don’t think that is a very good idea , as their track record SUCKS! .. no that can not happen, someone has to stop it.

    but dang what they going to screw up now? and from when they Take what is not theirs to have , and not theirs to play with….. from then on what will mankind be being slapped with in their catechisms dedicated to the lower levels of beastiness ?

    They want those stories to validate their goofiness. yet not one of the cowards has bothered to first explain recorded history in recorded time. .
    now that man or woman who does that…. now they just might have a right to tell the real stories of old and what was passed down from this worlds grandpa and grandmas and other eye witnesses !
    but to steal what is not yours and what you have been laughing at ! what hypocrisies!

    oh no those tales of old did not come from your imaginations.. or from your Idea of “logic” or based in your ideas of reality or history.. no they are not based in your limited knowledge of good and evil or truth and realities.. they are based in eye witnessed truth.
    but to think that the beasties… they want to USE what has been mocked and laughed at for so long. now that is the ultimate hypocrisy to use those grandpa’s stories to validate the Theory of the beasties.. and other wild imaginings .
    someone tell them to keep their hands off of “the grandpa’s of the worlds” stories, the stories which come in all their many forms.
    or who knows what those beasties will unleash on the world and newly revised catechism and then they will be beating you about the head with it next week!

    and for You MR ED , have you not used the term ” myth” to me at least twice, you and others to invalidate what I have brought to this subject . at least twice in our few short conversations?
    You can not by anyones form of intellectual integrity condemn one form of “myth ” and validate another form of “myth” because you found you were able to USE one and can twisted it to fit the goofiness born from and in man’s ignorance arrogance and blindness!
    no it is not right.. thus wrong!
    Explain recorded history in the recorded time given by eye witnesses or give up and shut up and stop using them.
    remember the ‘ Hittites’ and “Sodom and Gomorra” and “five cities of the plains” these were all just ‘myths’ just afew short years ago! archeaology has a very bad track record of calling things “myths’ before it has gathered all of the evidence!
    or worse even started asking relevant questions!
    There is a big difference of saying that ‘there is not enough evidence to determine” a thing , than to mockingly declare something a ‘myth’ when you haven’t even looked into it or worse only some sophist did look into it , that game is old and cheap and it is a power trip. as they all can bring doubt on their own mothers existence quite convincingly usually .

  8. “oh no those tales of old did not come from your imaginations.. or from your Idea of “logic” or based in your ideas of reality or history.. no they are not based in your limited knowledge of good and evil or truth and realities.. they are based in eye witnessed truth.”

    Please, CL, either tell us these tales in their original language or sentence by sentence, please post your own translations of them, rather than these general summaries. Or at the least, post links to tell us where to go to find them.

    The kinds of assertions you make you don’t support with anything but your own ramblings and mutterings.

    Please:

    Put up or shut up. You drag this entire community down to some psychobabble and lunacy.

    And for what? So your fingers get some sort of exercise on the keyboard? You don’t seem to be exercising anything above the wrist.

    Whether we who come here agree on issues, this is a blog for the exchange of intelligent discourse on impacts, impact histories/accounts, plus related science. It isn’t for spieling out our sloppy thinking about the Garden of Eden and such.

    Please. Stay keep on the subject matter of this blog. Your von-Daniken-like incoherence is not only a distraction, but it drags down the level of discourse to something between a hoe down and a trip to the outhouse.

    I quote from the movie Billy Madison: “…what you’ve just said… is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.”

    I am not a moderator here. If I were, I’d have banned you about 7 or 8 comments ago.

    As it is, I hereby request that George consider this. If he does, he has my vote.

  9. “when the truth is man was always HUGE with 6 fingers and toes and two rows of teeth that seem to be able to replace themselves and with those teeth built/created to chew forever.”

    First off, Chicken, usually I say “traditions” when refering to Native American oral history – some “anthroplogists” use “myth”, while some NDNs consider the word “traditions” as refering to other things. Now I am using the term “historical traditions” to refer to the “oral histories”.

    The Andaste are covered in my book, the ancestors remembered them, and they were not spiritually enlightened survivors of “Atlantis” who came to the Americas. There never has been a crustal shift, and there was no landmass in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.

    For you to state so is simply fraud, and trying to profit from your delusions and/or present yourself as a spiritual guide based on your confusions is an abomination.

    As “Tallegewi” was the term Lenape used in refering to Shawnee (Tchallagewi) your confusion is irritating to me on a gut deep level. There were no “Allegewi” – that is a made up word.

    Now I ask you plain, what is your heritage, and who was your teacher?

  10. you know mr Ed truth changes you and this one is going to Hurt probably for years to come!

    http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=elisany&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

    did you see her name?
    you might want to ask a indian what
    Elisany means. you might want to change the spelling to a bit more to like maybe like Ali sani
    and then you might want to ask them to compare to some other words . and of course you all know what a
    “ani” is right?
    ani waya
    ani wode
    ani daste etc

    so make them compare these words

    Allegewi
    Allegani
    Illinani/illinini

    also other females names like
    Allie/
    Ollie
    Eli-sa
    Al-ma
    Elle
    Alsa etc.
    but you might want to ask your own elders about it!

    then tell us about those ” as you would call them “myths” who’s same words and names and concepts appear to also exist and are used in South America , in the Amazon no less ?
    if you don’t want to understand them then keep your quadrupeds off every mans grandpa’s stories!

    REALLY unless someone gets a clue what this land is or was, how can they tell us where we came from or where or how ANYONE came to be here anyway! if they can’t get a clue they need to leave myths to the grandpa’s and the elders and the Bible where it belongs with all the other eye witnessed records of history!
    but really isn’t the word “atlantis” just a concept not a real place name .. but we are the concept and they called this turtle Island “Turtle island” for a very good reason sir! AND IT HAS NOT ONE THING TO DO WITH TECTONIC PLATES OVER BILLIONS OF YEARS .

  11. Chicken,

    If there’s one thing I’ve learned over the past few years, there is no way to break a delusional framework with facts.

    The person involved will usually go off on another tangent when confronted with them, so thus you have to go through them again and again, as well as deal with his new nonsense.

    You mention my passing on the traditions; I ask you your heritage, and you come back with a demand which you have no right to make.

    I am really tired of you anonymously and constantly sliging merde at me, so I’ll join Steve Garcia in his request to George, so as to prevent the further wasting of band space and our time here. So there.

    For anyone else stumbling into this rather pathetic exchange, tracking mt DNA is a good way to learn where we came from.

    It certainly wasn’t by alien genetic engineering.

  12. why am I respeonsible for everything evey man has ever thought about the concept of atlantis?
    the bottom line facts of this is simple.. something awful happened to lands west of the atlas mountains approximately 2800 or 3200 years ago . what lands are west of the atlas mountains ?
    .. did something truly awful happen in the lands west of the atlas mountains? did that land get “fotgotten ” for thousands of years by the old world ?
    yes it did sir.
    what man kind has done to these facts AIN’T MY PROBLEM!

    so if you can hold me responsible for all man’s studity it does to eye witnessed truth from the geologic table and carbon or radioactivty dating of cosmic events … to a crystal sculls and Et’s .
    which THose things are not my problem they are not MY issues MR.
    I can prove from eye witnesses that Humanity was once giant and created that way on the six day with 6 fingers and two rows of teeth created to chew forever. And I can prove something awful happened on this land native americans called Turtle island..
    beyond any reasonable doubt…. what man does with those facts pro or con is his own damn problem!

    so if you can hold me responsible for STUPIDY of man logic abilities and the ignorance it capable of .. then can I arbitrarily will hold you responsible for all slavery in the world and whining and ignorance created and thought of both pro and con for it ?
    in the mean time you have prove ! prove! Eli, Ollie , Illi, Alle, isn’t a title tracing a lineage to what you call a “myth” but is the truth , and if you can’t prove it shut UP and leave the interpretation of anyones eye witness accounts to the people who understand it!

  13. Hi Chicken,

    You are correct that you are not responsible for the stupidity of all mankind. You are only responsible for your own. And it doesn’t sound like you are doing a very good job of holding yours in check.

    You’re pretty darned hypocritical to be demanding proof of something your incoherent muttering fails to define. And when you can’t yourself prove a damn thing you’re saying.

    You claim the you can prove “from eye witnesses that Humanity was once giant and created that way on the six day with 6 fingers and two rows of teeth created to chew forever.” But hearsay is not proof of anything. No matter who said it, or who passed it on. If your eye witnesses are still alive, trot them out, and let them do their own proving.

    I will give you credit though. You do have ‘A Beautiful Mind’. It seems to work a lot like the character Russell Crow played in the movie with that title. And yours are some of the damnedest delusions I’ve heard in a long time. Which leads me to wonder: How long have you been off your antipsychotic medications? Are you trying alternative therapy? How’s that working for you?

  14. Hey Chicken,

    Your delusions are getting ahead of you again. There is mention of speculation that an impact event may have caused the extreme climate change 4200 years ago. But how do you get a “newly formed Atlantic” from that article?

    I’d also like to hear your proof of those six fingered giants with too dang many teeth you told us about.

  15. sir have you ever heard of ‘ proof ‘ which can be called
    “reasonable doubt ” or” preponderance of the evidence”?

    “Hearsay is information gathered by one person from another concerning some event , condition, or thing of which the first person had no direct experience.”

    science has to try and sell said ‘hearsay’ all of the time.. and pretends it is pure as the driven snow “science” but it is just salesmanship and the confidence based on hearsay and in the confidence put in someone’s logical abilities and the confidence in what that person uses to get his circular reasoning from.. all that is relied upon because it is agreed upon by those who demand respect for their fields !
    not because it is in anyway a ‘pure science’ or even reasonable science .. much less having anything to do with common sense!

    . . but just agreed upon stuff . constructs, youall’s own catechisms.

    and none of these
    special” the short bus” kinds of sciences because they can’t prove anything .. and demonstrate less. do they have the market cornered on anything even close to a pure science .. if there ever was such a thing.

    “reasonable doubt ” or” preponderance of the evidence”
    a conviction for first degree murder is always based on these elements because the hearsay can point to the motivation of the murder .
    yes sure there is pure and purer kinds of hearsay used in law all the time.

    personal eye witnesses is the most valuable of all forms of hearsay..

    you sir you cant’ prove anything past 50 years ago without using some form said hearsay. you can’t prove with out hear ay washington existed or was even president..not with out hearsay .

    now you have put confidence in what folks “here say” or who they quote … folks who build their hearsay out of the Logic of someone else ”
    I put no confidence in hearsay evidence based in man’s “logic” except those which are not 100% demonstrable ! which really only amounts to some biochemistry and some of the fundamental laws like gravity etc. everything else is built from circular reasoning and in man’s knowledge and what someone puts their Confidence in. , everything is that ever existed as pertains to man’s knowledge is circular ! oh yes sir I am a “show me” or ‘shut up’ type a person !

    The rest of everything is hearsay based on circular reasonings of some sort . I have yet to meet any man who has even a most basic level of ‘common sense’ much less any thing even coming close to something even remotely related to ” pure logic”, especially when the person wasn’t there to see it themselves and even if they saw it takes common sense to understand what was seen.. and so even if they saw it doesn’t mean they understood it. . but there is a lot better chance they did understand it than the man who never saw it. . but really I have never met either a city folk or any kind of desk jockey who had any kind of common sense.
    the point is you prefer your’ hearsay’ from all kinds of “confidence men” and great those who possess salesmanship and the more the better.. .. and this you prefer to be Created in man’s logic and put your confidence in man “logical” abilities and the heresy that is created which they call” Science “.

    but I do not put any confidence in such.

    I sir prefer my hearsay to be based on records of the events of the past and to be from eye witness or in legends or writings or recordings of legends who were eye witnesses ,like our said Plato..

    I prefer to” ask my elder” what is true” how ever I can get it .
    because I don’t believe I have found a human yet (including myself) with any kind of Logic or was omniscient and can see all things without having been there … no matter how much ‘purity” virtuous and virginous … they think their
    “science” is or is capable of ,but really because they are involved in some part of the process it just got a lot less pure….

    but If it is so painful to read what I write , DON”T read it,just Don’t read it, be happy , don’t worry.. be happy! !
    I wasn’t talking to you or any of the others who have commented either, I only talked to Ed who was lying or ignorant about native tales. either way he is spreading stuff that isn’t true about people who can’t defend themselves. yet!

    I was and am only going to be talking to people who wanted to talk about Plato’s hearsay and the Atlantis hearsay and what those may have to do with the hearsay we are now calling ‘cosmic events’ but in recorded/hearsay history , and not hearsay of billions and billions of of years ago that has been formed in man’s logic…..
    Because in land far far away………..has there only been one man ever with pure logic, but he was also eye witness to all things..
    but is it not really cognitive dissonance that is paining you so?

    I will admit i am not the smartest person around and I may even be one of those “foolish things of this world” and you may be “the wise” but I would put no conference in it..

    Now really what does any of all you’alls entries have to do with Atlantis and or the Atlantic or MR Plato or even the Atlas Mountians or even cosmic events?.. or anything having to do with this thread?
    I think youall’s posts is the very definition of trolling.
    ……now go troll some other thread
    or easy enough write about the Atlantic or Plato in recorded history!

  16. Plato wrote ‘Critias’ in 360 BCE. And he sets the story of Atlantis about 9,000 years before that.

    His story of Atlantis has been discounted for centuries as mere fictional legend. Chiefly because the common assumption has always been that mankind could not possibly have achieved such a level of civilization so early. As well as the unwillingness to believe that catastrophes of such magnitude have happened in human times.

    But the 2002 discovery of  a 9,500-year-old city found
    underwater off the coast of India should make folks re-think a whole lot of history.

    See: http://www.spiritofmaat.com/announce/oldcity.htm

  17. wow that is so cool . thank you for this contribution! it is very cool!
    plato is my new hero for now …. He is trying very hard to be as truthful and honrable as he can be .. it is very cool and really quite refreshing !
    I also find it interesting how this greek even in those days seems to be very much a absolutist and appears less a sophist than I would have guessed.
    I had only seen tiny exerts of his writtings. so this is very very cool. thank you Mr Cox..

    talking about what Plato was talking about, he mentions a race track,
    didn’t they find a huge race track about the size quoted here in like orkney or Greenland? well one of those islands that might be some of those that were “left” out there in the Atlantic?

    or where was that giant race track they just found anyone know? not far from there was a huge building also. it was covered in some dirt/ I think sterile soils of course and quite deep so they are claiming it very very old because of it’s soil depth … . it is really large race track it seemed huge to me.. especially if you were racing a horse on it. so it made me wonder what besides horse they had been racing on it..

    oh yes and I just love this name
    Elasippus
    I wonder what the original word (before they greekified it) ..what it might have been?

    ROTF! ;p
    anyone want to make a wild quess what it might have been in the original language !!!!!

    yes that “Myth” is just precious info there , yes it is, thank you for this elaborate and so detailed “Myth”!
    and dang I wish we had ” the rest of the story” !

  18. Perhaps it’s a question of perspective. If Atlantis really existed, a civilization like that can’t exist in a vacuum, it would have had to have had trading partners. There’s no reason to think Atlantis perished alone. Plato’s account may be just the only surviving western memory of an ancient global catastrophe.

    Which is easier to wrap your brain around? Geologically speaking, Is it easier to imagine a subcontinent sized landmass suddenly sinking beneath the waves? Or would you prefer to think it through from the other direction, and imagine the destruction of Atlantis as the seas rising up a dozen meters or so, in an event that effected all coastal civilizations world-wide? Perhaps due to an ice sheet impact that effected sea levels.

    When you connect the stories that way, Plato’s account dovetails nicely with some Vedic traditions from the other side of the world that appear to be every bit as ancient. And it maybe even provides some good questions for Archeologists to ask of those 9,500 year old sunken ruins half a world away from Plato’s Greece, and off the coast of India.

  19. yes very interesting but 9000 years old in india ..according to soil levels? I won’t go there now..

    … yes even the tsunami out in the Polynesia is estamted at 2220-3500 years I think..

    we don’t even need to count that both the Wobaabe and the Guanches had not only this same form of government, but also some parts of ancient americans did also,but they same exact “marriage markets” meat market… all based in a concept of beautiful men..

    not only that they share their ashes/fire at their fires and . and not only that but they have same exact word for their “devil” type god of evil . so now could Wodaabe be the remnants of the Atlas people as Atlas is still connected to africa ?

    but you also have to admit that if a continent that is 1/3 of the land mass and was called ‘turtle’ for a reason was Moved or swam from it’s place the only thing left would be mud or a few “left” overs at most .
    so no I would never trust oral stories for their time tables nor ones that had been translated over and over again or ones told into other cultures and by other cultures and those original papers were not from the orginal people…. if the original people had not kept the original dates very well but maybe very vaguely and just orally and which can also be very subjective to everything under such tramatic events as these events had to have been .

    you know two or three “other ” nations people and” other” nations cultures and quite a few generations had had this paper he mentions at least two I think and that is just what he mentions. and so who was doing the translaqting from the original?

    well unless the originals stories and legends showed that the time of the kingdoms starting was 9000 years or they thought was 9000 years ago, he does try and start at the start.. it doesn’t also mean that the event which destroyed the lands was at the start!
    but maybe the island itself may not have moved till just about 900 years before Plato.

    .. and so how can you prove or disprove the timing.. I say it be taken off the table till we figure out with recorded history what really happened.

    because ifit wasn’t 9000 but about 900 years earlier puts it at a yet be explained but world wide ,eye witnessed event that stopped the sun in the sky for 24 hours … how much force does it take to stop the mass of the earth for 24 hours and then start it again ? because of a very fundamental laws of the universe … “like for every action there is a equal and opposite reaction” has to be held true as it is a proven demonstrable law.. . ,so
    that force had to have left effects equal to the power of’ that mass exchanges ..SO where are all the effects of that much force or mass that is required to stop the world in our recorded time?
    the rising sea would not be counted in any of the effects of the mass though.. just a result of the already moved masses. of maybe you have a bit as you have to get the water started..

    but I personally do not think it was the event of 3200 years ago one that moved turtle island but and event less talked about 2800 years ago event that reversed the earths turning at least for awhile. that had to have been one powerful slam.
    I might or might not elaborate on it later.

    but the 3200 year old event sure would have created some of the fresh water and no glaciers would be needed .. because if there was elepHants on it or near it, it couldn’t have been a frozen tundra at that time ..THAT Is impossible !
    and what if that event is part of what created some of the sea he ia talking about.. but it was a smaller sea than now.
    but some form of science has determined that there was once a lot of fresh water in the Atlantic at one time..I would say the whole Mediterranean lake exchanging water and some of the Great lakes full of water dumping in a bathtub type effect as they moved … would be very possibly dumping billions even trillions of tons on fresh water into that space.. if something like a turtle island was moved from it’s place .

    land to the amounts of land the size of ” Libya and Asia” that amount of mass would have accounted for at least 1/3 of the mass of land because he is not talk about just china and the state of libya but of all of north parts of Africa and all of asia … so is that enough FRESH WATER dumped into the Atlantic at once ? and then maybe one or both of those events moved us closer or father from the sun ? what would be those effects ?

    but I will say with that his form of government and those Names if deGreekized .. could all probably be found today here or close . and that nations forms of government sure have been found.. just have to look at not only parts of north america but also the Canaries and parts of south america and yes even in other parts of the world also maybe like india . dang dang then we have to bring Antarctica into play… dang…..I was hoping to avoid that. that is way bigger than I can wrap my head around.. I figured that had to be pre flood.. it is just so huge..dang. and even part of this story is pre flood..

    I truly do not in anyway doubt the truth hiding in this” Myth”, if there is any myth in it … it is only because of man’s inability to tell or maybe translate what is ‘ time ” and what is ‘God’s” as truly narcissistic as man is as man, and how he can only eat from the tree/concepts he alone created.. , how could he with out help understand that which he has not experienced? no time is just dots on page.

  20. “Moreover, the land reaped the benefit of the annual rainfall, not as now losing the water which flows off the bare earth into the sea, but, having an abundant supply in all places, and receiving it into herself and treasuring it up in the close clay soil, it let off into the hollows the streams which it absorbed from the heights, providing everywhere abundant fountains and rivers, of which there may still be observed sacred memorials in places where fountains once existed; and this proves the truth of what I am saying. ”

    here is question I got .
    is he talking pre atlantic ( stealing their water ) or pre flood. as the bible talks about all the world was watered by springs pre flood .. which he is also stating. so we do not know and probably neither does he know if he is talking pre “flood” or pre atlantic ocean which steals africa and most of Europe’s(the Med’s water. and all his stories combined into one tale of all the tragedies of one land.

  21. It’s time for a reality check.

    Where do you get this “pre-atlantic” idea. As far as human history is concerned, the Atlantic Ocean has always been there. It pre-dates all of humanity by many millions of years.

    What makes you think it doesn’t?

  22. “Many great deluges have taken place during the(his) nine thousand years, for that is the number of years which have elapsed since the time of which I am speaking; and during all this time and through so many changes, there has never been any considerable accumulation of the soil coming down from the mountains”

    well I am a student of recorded history and yes I do have a few ” special knowledge ” things. some of which I preffer not to talk about .. you know family business.
    but it all has forced me to become a student of humans records of history.
    but I much much prefer the records of the bible as it’s dating is way more reliable so far.. .. as no one has ever really proved it false . not without some really goofy stuff being passed off a science. like soil levels used to date things..

    Because the Atlantic now days as it may or may not have always been called in all ages or even existed in some .. .The space we call the ” atlantic” and Egyptians may call “the big green. but atlantic being the waters of Atlas it is called now at one time was not salty ..
    so what was the configuration which would have made it a lake like the great lakes?

    the water levels, types of water and forms of watering.. and amounts of water in all recorded history in all the earth was recorded as different in pre flood and in pre salt water Atlantic (Abrahams time ,approx 500 of Egyptian glory till the fall of the Med by the lost lands of the sea peoples.. ) and even more different post large salt water Atlantic which steals all of the water from “the old world”
    do you want the scripture of all these events predicted by Isiiah , as for th eplan of God in this matter? .. from the first , well first cosmic event post flood maybe .. to last cosmic event?
    IS. 23 and 24. beginning to end as one huge plan..

    blessing and curings from his hand always are from the same events.. ..
    blessing to those ready and curses to those not ready.. but his idea of ready not ours ..

    so those worlds records are very clear.. three very different conditions and those proving at least three very different configurations of something yet to be questioned, much less proved …… as plato states
    ” many deluges” over the recorded ages that he can not explain either. oh but they did happen.
    these of course are just OUR family opinions. but we have been question it it for long time. but as far as I can tell science has yet to prove anything remotely relevant to the real questions much less answer them.

  23. More incoherent, quasi-religious, balderdash.

    I am not a world-class biblical scholar. But I’ve spent many a year singin’ bass in the back row of a great big Baptist choir. Some of those years I didn’t miss a single Sunday. I have led many a bible study group, and I’ve even taught an adult Sunday School class, or two. I’ve lost count of how many times I have read the good book from cover, to cover. And you continually make references to information that you claim is in the bible, but that just ain’t there sister. I think our lord had something to say about bearing false witness, didn’t he?

    If the Bible is your reference, I can respect that. But even the worst of preachers, like the fallen ones who lie to their congregations, and pocket all the tithe monies, have enough respect that they will tell you chapter, and verse, when they claim something can be found in the bible. If you are going to credit something as being a ‘biblical truth’ I can accept that too. But you should have enough respect to be prepared to give the book, chapter, and verse. Especially if you are using your confused perceptions of imaginary biblical content to invalidate good science.

    But this is not the place for that discussion. This a forum for the discussion of “Abrupt climate change induced by comets and asteroids during human history” And you have no right to highjack this discussion in confusing attempts to stuff your incoherent, poorly defined, mis-guided, religious views down our throats.

  24. “Because in land far far away………..has there only been one man ever with pure logic, but he was also eye witness to all things..but is it not really cognitive dissonance that is paining you so?”

    No, its not cognitvie dissonance that is paining me or anyone else here.

    It is a very confused individual attempting to pass himself off as a spirtual guide.

    It is also being called a thief and a liar by a fraud.

    I have asked you your heritage, and you have not responded.
    Enough said.

    I have asked you your teachers, since none of mine spoke to me as you do, but you have none.

    Chicken, if you want to continue this, we can go to New Age Frauds and Plastic Shamans.

    Do you want to identify yourself by your real name?

  25. Guys, Chicken, just a little science here: The Atlantic Ocean began with a major episode of Earth’s geological history, the end-Triassic/ start-Jurassic extinction. A major volcanic flood left basalt on four continents bordering the ocean, known as the CENTRAL ATLANTIC MAGMATIC PROVINCE (CAMP). This happened 200 million years ago. Chicken will madder than a wet hen!! All Americans should know about the famous Hudson River Palisades, a sill of basalt frozen into hexagonal columns. This was erupted at that time, as Manhattan split from Morocco(?) and the spreading zone in the center of the ocean drove the Old World and the New World apart. The Dutch geologist Han Kloosterman who repeatedly has posted on COSMIC TUSK told of his canoe trip in NE Brazil where for a whole week he saw nothing but the basalts of the CAMP. The event, by my own theory, was the result of a giant comet impacting at the Azores in the center of CAMP leaving a still active hotspot. The impact melted the crust down to the mantle which then started a cyclical eruption pattern known as a recurrent caldera. Steve Sparks of Bristol U. has described a model, unrelated to impacts, of this recurrent erupion pattern, which also occurs at the Yellowstone hotspot, now about every 800 K years.

  26. you didn’t read Is. 23 or 24 did you or you don’t understand it. and I can’t help what you don’t know !

    you lie about Alleg/Olli/elli etc and I have proved it is a a kind of recorded lineage opf some kind in north and south America. I am not anyones elder nor do I wish to be.. I just want you all to stop lieing or being so dang ignorant and always calling me and my ancestors liars.. when it is you who lies..

    you nor any of them have any right … none rights to tell us what they think happened more than 6000 years that no one has ever ever seen or ever recorded , but you claim to have proved what has never exsisted to any man anywhere ever , except this generation..

    they claim they can prove their nothing is … nothing because it is not nor ever has been in the mind of anyone but you!

    they think they have proved what no one has seen and no one recorded .. cheap cheap cheap, lousy and cheap . you have no right when you all have not even begun to tell us what happened in record time. it is huge and it is REAL and it was in the minds of men because it happened!
    tell what happened the last 6000 years or give up!
    Man was a giant not a monkey.. we are de-evolving fallen and falling faster.. and we are headed towards Lucy… we are the only thing between what we were created to be and lucy and we are headed toward lucy faster by the minutes.
    tell what happened in eye witness and record history or give up.
    I been at least trying to explain to my children and grandchildren what might have been in the minds of all of mankind over many generations , things that existed because they were witnessed and recorded !
    mr ed you lied or are ignorant about north american history and my ancestors can’t defend themselves yet , so stop !
    but mostly if you keep going you will be handing north american indian tribes their butts on a platter sacrificed at the idol of science’s made up ” truths”that no one has ever known and stereotypes which are lies ,, just lies . you have to stop and find the real truth in a hurry or you will be responsible for what happens to them . you have just stop lying about it and stretching what is remembered by some into stuff never known before by anyone but you and this generation of con men and liars !
    I give up
    MR cox read IS. AGAIN …all the lands of the tribes of tyre were distroyed .. everwhere they were for his purposes WITH OUTPOSTS EVERYWHERE . I don’t know what you don’t know and neither am I responsible for it.
    BUT YOU CAN’T READ THIS !

    Isa 24:15 Wherefore glorify 3513 ye the LORD 3068 in the fires 217, [even] the name 8034 of the LORD 3068 God 430 of Israel 3478 in the isles 339 of the sea 3220.

    Isa 24:16 From the uttermost part 3671 of the earth 776 have we heard 8085 songs 2158, [even] glory 6643 to the righteous 6662. But I said 559 , My leanness 7334, my leanness 7334, woe 188 unto me! the treacherous dealers 898 have dealt treacherously 898 ; yea, the treacherous dealers 898 have dealt very 899 treacherously 898 .

    Isa 24:17 Fear 6343, and the pit 6354, and the snare 6341, [are] upon thee, O inhabitant 3427 of the earth 776.

    Isa 24:18 And it shall come to pass, [that] he who fleeth 5127 from the noise 6963 of the fear 6343 shall fall 5307 into the pit 6354; and he that cometh up 5927 out of the midst 8432 of the pit 6354 shall be taken 3920 in the snare 6341: for the windows 699 from on high 4791 are open 6605 , and the foundations 4146 of the earth 776 do shake 7493 .

    Isa 24:19 The earth 776 is utterly 7489 broken down 7489 , the earth 776 is clean 6565 dissolved 6565 , the earth 776 is moved 4131 exceedingly 4131 .

    Isa 24:20 The earth 776 shall reel 5128 to and fro 5128 like a drunkard 7910, and shall be removed 5110 like a cottage 4412; and the transgression 6588 thereof shall be heavy 3513 upon it; and it shall fall 5307 , and not rise 6965 again 3254 .

    Isa 24:21 ¶ And it shall come to pass in that day 3117, [that] the LORD 3068 shall punish 6485 the host 6635 of the high ones 4791 [that are] on high 4791, and the kings 4428 of the earth 127 upon the earth 127.

    YOU DIDN’T READ THIS.
    AND 23 HE IS PUNISHING TYRE AND ALL HER LANDS” ALL HER “DAUGHTERS” THE SAME WAY HE PUNISHED TYRE , HE DROWNED IT FIRST IN FIRE THEN IN WATER. .
    YOU CAN’T TELL ME YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THIS IS!AND SAY YOU HAVE READ IT..
    OR YOU ONLY GAVE MILK TO BABES A MOST IN THOSE CLASSES YOU TAUGHT.

  27. Chicken,

    Who do you think you are, anyway? And when did someone stick a feather in your butt, and call you a prophet?

    In spite of what your psycho-pathetic, self righteous, delusions have got you to thinking, you are obviously not any kind of scholar. Not by even the remotest stretch of the imagination. Much less a qualified bible scholar, or teacher. Heck you can’t even construct a coherent, meaningful sentence.

    So stop preaching at us. I have a bible too. I even know how to read it for myself! And if I want to join a bible study, I am privileged to number at least five PhD level bible, and middle eastern religion scholars among my choir brothers, and close personal friends.

    Your self righteous, holier-than-thou attitude is as rude, offensive, and downright disgusting, an insult to my intelligence, as anything I have ever heard.

    I would hope that you would have the good grace to just shut up, and go away. But since I doubt that will happen. And since it is clear that no intelligent discussion of impact phenomena, or their consequences, are going to be possible in the face of your incessant incoherent arguments, and self-righteous preaching. And your self-assured attitude of moral, and intellectual superiority, I’ll cast my vote with Ed, and Steve to have you banned from posting on the Tusk.

  28. Chicken,
    it seems that you don’t believe in a 200 million year age of the Hudson River Palisades? So what is your explanation? This should also pertain to the Mid-Atlantic Ridge, the volcanic zone where the ocean floor spreads East and West, snaking down the center of N & S Atlantic from Iceland past the Azores to near Antarctica and the S Sandwich Islands. You can see the ridge on Google Satellite maps. BTW, I did not see the Azores or Palisades mentioned on the URL you posted, so that’s just more of Chicken’s baloney?

  29. This chicken person is devolving this blog to off-topic bullshit. This chicken person is diminishing some of our interest in coming here.

    George?

    Could you please address my request, seconded by Ed?

  30. ” The Atlantic Ocean began with a major episode of Earth’s geological history, the end-Triassic/ start-Jurassic extinction. A major volcanic flood left basalt on four continents bordering the ocean, known as the CENTRAL ATLANTIC MAGMATIC PROVINCE (CAMP). This happened 200 million years ago.”
    oh herman I just found this jewel..
    Well wouldn’t this be another on of those ‘himsay’ theories ?
    Well let me give you a secret any him who says stuff that goes against common sense and mostly eyewitnesses and by that act he makes you stop questioning him or anyone .. it isn’t education he is offering but indoctrination.
    If you paid for that kind of ‘himsay’ or maybe ‘hersay’ quackery .. go get your money back and then slap that duck silly!

    you see there are natural laws that clearly state that everything must move when hit by anything with more mass , or that is going faster then that object being hit , oh yes it/something will move period. and since the core is fluid, oh yes now that is even a theory too ..
    but they can’t tell you when it was formed that is a theory and guess all built on assumptions ..
    the only thing it really says is just that it is all the same now. and it’s meaning is that it is now a related rock, related to the other rocks .. because the same conditions or same pressures formed it or cracked it , or heated it or whatever, it is just related rocks from related conditions.
    Now just because some “himsay” says “that is impossible for them to move …because it is rock and billions of years old so it can not move…”,

    but that is not what eyewitnesses say , yes and in recorded history’s time tables to boot eye witnesses say it .

    This makes his arguments lies and a fabrication build in ignorance or rebellion or racism ,

    or worse …. just plain old anti-everything anyone has ever seen or heard or experienced……..

    Even this theory you presented as law……. law he made up is against the fundamental natural laws which used to be acknowledged by real science.
    so real science says if the size of the mass is large enough or moving fast enough IT has to move somehow!

    so let’s take a look around and observe…. now how about Greenland that ain’t so green anymore looks like a giant bathtub and it lines up perfectly with the canaries. well from there eye witnesses have told it all quite clearly. and
    What about the thousands of ‘missing people” in europe of about 3500-10000 years ago. and all those sterile soils… and
    look how they have lied and made up fairy tales of how mammoths on ice and glaciers… no way! what a joke…. they had to make cute little movies to convince little city children with desk jockey parents of such blatant lies or they are completely ignorant of the needs of ruminants. because Mammoths didnt’ line near ice , it didn’t happen. a bald faced lie and everyone “believes” it. and man what a con job..

    Then there is Africa and the middle east which was lush and a garden and dripping with “milk and honey” and now just a dry rock… lush once upon a time….

    isn’t anymore
    no one has yet to really explain WHY!

    it seems they only want to tell us what happened billions and billions of years ago … when it isn’t provable, and is totally irrelevant to any questions except for those questions they pulled from who in the heck can guess where…… well that is more than enough
    evidence that the ‘ himsay’ was full of it. and
    and when a evolutionist starts screaming about ‘myths” it is a clue for the ones who hope beyond hope to be counted by God to be ‘ wise’ , it is sign for them to dig deeper… because they are hiding something.

    Now for the neanderthal genes..
    there is not nor ever was there any such thing as a “neanderthal”, the raciest ignorance deafening , the concept of ‘ neanderthal’ is just a concept created by agenda driven dribble masquerading as “science”…. and while hoping beyond hope and with all their FAITH , when finding native type skulls and native people ancestors who were coming this way in the old world . Then with all their faith and thinking and hoping it had found “the missing link”. they were so busy titalating their own Ego’s over the possibility that there was no god, when it was really just being it’s normal ignorant and raciest self. so it overlooked the most obvious clues. the clue that should have ended the garbage science .. it is calls ‘mammoth jumps’. that should have ended the ignorance then and there .. no but they were having to much of a titillating maniacal ego’s time of it to see the obvious and the truly observable.
    yes just more darwinian racism .. its deepest and darkest lies goes to the very foundations of it’s reality.
    no the apple never falls far from the tree of good and evil.

    AND FOR MR COX
    Paul says he wishes “that all would prophesy”, here you read it !

    1Cr 14:1 Follow 1377 after charity 26, and 1161 desire 2206 spiritual 4152 [gifts], but 1161 rather 3123 that 2443 ye may prophesy 4395 .
    1Cr 14:24 But 1161 if 1437 all 3956 prophesy 4395 , and 1161 there come in 1525 one 5100 that believeth not 571, or 2228 [one] unlearned 2399, he is convinced 1651 of 5259 all 3956, he is judged 350 of 5259 all 3956:
    1Cr 14:31 For 1063 ye may 1410 all 3956 prophesy 4395 one by one 2596 1520, that 2443 all 3956 may learn 3129 , and 2532 all 3956 may be comforted 3870 .

    he also says

    2Ti 2:15 Study 4704 to shew 3936 thyself 4572 approved 1384 unto God 2316, a workman 2040 that needeth not to be ashamed 422, rightly dividing 3718 the word 3056 of truth 225.
    ( you can find these at blue letter bible .com.. the numbers are hebrew and greek references YOU CAN LOOK UP each word )

    one has to ask what were you teaching in that “bible” class you gave anyway ?
    and Did they get what they paid for? well I am very sure that they will.

    so could it have been about the religion of scientism’s special offer at a low low price the ” Good news of an impotent God” on sale today … everywhere!
    now why would anyone want that?
    well lots of people do right?
    .. yes they do !

    they want and have always wanted a tame lap dog and a tame God too. that special kind of Tame god that does whatever you tell it to do right?

    you know even the jews built a golden calf at the feet of the real God. did you know they all could have walked up that mountain and been washed and cleaned .. but none of them wanted to know Him , no one wanted to talk to him …because He is not tamable and no He is not controllable, nor is he comfortable..

    and they even called their golden calf by the same name and gave it credit for saving them from the Egyptians.. there is nothing new under the sun dear!

    yes Mr Cox
    I do believe they call the giants you asked about by this word ..Homo heidelbergensis now they wouldn’t’ want to use that name ‘Giant’ and they claim they are only 6ft tall, such a lie..

    “The best evidence found for these hominin date between 600,000 and 400,000 years ago. H. heidelbergensis stone tool technology was very close to that of the Acheulean tools used by” ………….plus garbage and more garbage …………………..
    beyond a reasonbable doubt assumes reason.. as it appears scientism faithful has none of this…now they wouldn’t claim they were ‘giants’ …because it proves right and rightous the Bible yet again.. and that their human tree is bogus and BS of the best kinds of con job .
    But these are giants with 2 rows of teeth, with hardly ever a tooth missing. Obviously they they were created to chew forever.
    These giants 10 and 12ft tall were created with 6 fingers and on the 6th day, 6000 years ago . but look how far we have fallen……

    yes something in us died that day. from the looks of it our logical abilities went first and from the looks of it courage went next !
    Either way no sciences , even with lots and lots of putty will get those lucy monkey men to be that thing which was created by a loving God who’s intention towards us was eternal good .. we are the only thing between your lucy and what we were created to be and we are headed towards lucy!
    Hopefully someday you will know God is not impotent.. he was and always has been only patient with us.. but that too will end.

  31. Chicken –

    For the Nephilim, would you please read Andrew Collin’s “From the Ashes of Angels”, and get back to us after you have?

  32. Please don’t feed the trols Ed. It just makes them come back.

    As for me, I see nothing to be gained by dignifying the psycho-religious balderdash, or the judgemental and self righteous, bible thumping of Ms. Chicken s**t with any reponse at all.

  33. Hi Hermann –

    On National Geographic Television little less – too bad I don’t have satellite or cable.

    Note the TSUNAMI – Dr. Bryant should be able to fill us in on it. Or perhaps Dr. Abbott.

    I wonder if Dr. Courty will show up?

  34. Ed, don’t have Nat Geo either, am hoping George will post video on TUSK!!

  35. Yes, that should be an interesting NatGeo show. I don’t have cable, either, so I will see how soon it will be available online.

    This is the first site I’ve heard of that addresses the most cogent mention in Plato’s account (IMHO),

    And that is the reason why the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is such a quantity of shallow mud in the way..

    After the 2004 tsunami the city of Banda Aceh was so devastated that much of the center was scoured all but clean of buildings and roads. In a large area only one palm tree remained standing. As it might apply to Atlantis, at that time I saw how little of Atlantis might have been left. I did not think that Atlantis was hit by a tsunami of the level of the 2004 event, but something much stronger – which would have left correspondingly less evidence of what had existed previously.

    Now, with the Japanese tsunami, it is clear that the 2004 event was not the upper limit of what a tsunami can do. We should take that as a lesson to not think even the Japaneses tsunami as being the upper limit.

    From what comments there are in this article, it is clear that the author recognizes the parallels of the two recent tsunamis and what the place Plato called Atlantis would have suffered.

    Both the location and the effects agree with Plato. It is amazing to me how many Atlantis researchers can’t accept the simple fact that a learned person such as Plato would know where the Pillars of Hercules are (which shoots down Thera and several other misguided other sitings for Atlantis). Cadiz (Gades) is exactly in the right area, in far SW Spain, very near to Gibraltar. It was even known as the end of the known world.

    North of Cadiz isn’t quite where I would expect it to be, but “the sea in those parts are impassable and impenetrable” does not say (which I had read into it lo these many years) that one could not travel past the Pillars of Hercules. This site seems the absolute best chance of finding Atlantis, IMHO. It is IN the Atlantic, outside the Pillars of Hercules, and the other features are in agreement, too. I eagerly await the show…

  36. Hi Steve, Hermann –

    Congratulations, Sheppard:

    http://www.minoanatlantis.com/Minoan_Spain.php

    Note the impact mega-tsunami strata covering the new site.
    There is a corresponding strata on the east coast of North America.

    Steve, to give you some idea of an impact mega-tsunami, consider the Japan tsunami. Now consider one 10-20 times as large, moving 10-20 times as fast.

    These have been occurring at a rate of about 1 per 1,000 years in the recent past.

    E.P. Grondine
    Man and Impact in the Americas

  37. Steve, N of Cadiz is less surprising in view of an earlier Pliocene strait N of Gibraltar through Central Spain during the Messinian Event, when the Mediterranean evaporated and refilled several times with straits to the Atlantic opening and closing. It can’t be too far N however, because we run into the Sierra Nevada (the original one). You can see the Northern straits fairly well on Google terrain and/or satellite maps.

    Ed, thanks for the Minoan URL, I had no idea, will read after supper.

  38. From TELEGRAPH (London, online) today:

    “The film’s claims however were on Monday dismissed as having no reliable basis in scientific fact and of misinterpreting partial results by an investigation by a team of distinguished Spanish scientists. Since 2005 they have been working on the site at a huge national park and bird sanctuary near Cadiz.

    Juan Villarías-Robles, an anthropologist with the Spanish government’s scientific research body, CSIC, says Professor Freund appeared sensationalised their work.

    Mr Villarías-Robles was part of a team investigating ancient geomorphology and settlements in Donaña, Europe’s largest wetlands.

    He said satellite photos of Donaña’s massive wetlands, west of Gibraltar, seemed to show buried rectangular buildings and concentric circles of a buried city near a beach.

    “Richard Freund was a newcomer to our project and appeared to be involved in his own very controversial issue concerning King Solomon’s search for ivory and gold in Tartessos, the well documented settlement in the Donaña area established in the first millennium BC.

    “He became involved in what we were doing and provided funding for probes through his connections with National Geographic and Associated Producers.

    “He left and the film company told us the documentary would be finished in April or May. But we did not hear from him and are very surprised it has appeared so soon and makes such fanciful claims.”

    Mr Villarías-Robles, who also dismissed claims of the “memorial cities”, said his team planned to offer their own conclusions later this year

    The theory that Atlantis is buried in the Spanish wetlands is the latest in a long line of suggested locations. In 2004, US ocean researchers said they were convinced they had found evidence of Atlantis off the coast of Cyprus. Others include various Mediterranean islands, Central America and even Antarctica.”

  39. Hi Hermann –

    The word “Atlantis” is the kiss of death among professional archaeologists. a carry over from their disgust with the theosophist fringe “explorers” and exploiters.

    The important point in all of this is the impact mega-tsunami buried city.

    Interpreting the other towns in the area as “memorials” to the main central city does not hold by the 14C dates for them.

  40. Hi Steve –

    An impact mega-tsunami is anywhere from 10-20 times higher than a seismic tsunami, and moves 10-20 times faster than a seismic tsunami.

    Perhaps debris from the Great Atlantic Impact Mega-Tsunami was trapped among the plants of the Sargasso “Sea”.

    From the excavators’ statement, there will be more complete information coming out later in this year.

  41. Ed and Herrmann –

    Two things…

    First, the images on Ed’s link mention that Çatal Höyük is in Konya, Turkey. I laughed at that, because that makes one more place I have been where I didn’t see what was there. I’ve been to the following places without seeing what was there: Knossus, Troy, Baalbek, Ica, and Tiahuanaco (was 10 miles away intending to go to the last one, but a general strike prevented us crossing into Bolivia).

    Second, in discussing human travel on the open sea, this article illustrates what is so infuriating about science – that they will ONLY move forward in minuscule steps. No one will admit anything beyond the nearest territory beyond what is currently accepted. Peer review has them all so intimidated that no one dares argue for anything daring. The MtDNA evidence that one of the five incursions into the New World was from Europe did not come from archeologists, but from geneticists – who may or may not even have been aware of their own overturning of long-established “fact.”

    That evidence SCREAMED that early man had more seafaring capabilities than anyone had been allowed too voice. Yet, what was the result? Oh, no, not that early man took to sea. The result was a scramble for some incremental means of getting “from there to here.” And what they came up with was canoeing along the edge of the ice. They couldn’t accept that open sea travel was undertaken. That was too big a step.

    But mark my words: In time – perhaps 1 or 2 decades, but more likely 1 or 2 centuries – conclusive evidence will come out that yes, man DID sail the open sea, thousands of years before presently accepted.

    I would wonder if they found an ancient Queen Mary cruise ship, what would they interpret it as?

    The reason I do not accept arkies as scientists is partially because it is 98-99% interpretation, starting from the foundation that white European Christian males were the end-all and be-all of evolution – and it is taking them centuries to dump that paradigm. That belief system is insulting to any and all genders not male, and all cultures that weren’t that one, especially those with non-white skin. One of its conclusions was the uniformitarian belief that time is a measure of human progress, and it was – as is uniformitarianism – incremental and always upward, up toward white Christian males. Nothing in history or pre-history could compete with the wonderfulness of those egocentrics. Ergo, anything worthwhile had to be from Europe, northern Europe. No early technological achievements can be allowed to be accepted as valid, if they challenge the WASPs’ ascendant stature. All of the megalithic sites are still attributed to cultures that could not possibly have produced them, all in the interests of burying them. But the real method is hiding their heads in the sand – and misleading the public for decade after decade about our real human past.

    This article’s description is ALL speculation, 98-99% interpretation, and uses the existing uniformitarian framework as the skeleton of its entire surmise. Two years from now, another micrometer of acceptance will be pout forth, one blade beyond the known universe of modern ascendancy and superiority. The fear is palable. The fear of being ridiculed and the fear of going over the edge of the world. It is as bad as before Galileo and Copernicus.

  42. Steve, there are archeologists who made great leaps. In my ’05 maths phil paper I refer to the work of Denise Schmandt-Besserat, U Texas, “Before Writing” (1992): Ancient clay envelopes are precursors of cuneiform writing, predate it by millennia. The hollow clay balls contain tokens for and record amounts of goods like olive oil bottles or sheep or grain. The contents were depicted by marks on the outside so the balls didn’t need to be broken. — For timidity of researchers there is no good antidote. The rare wealthy individual like Heinrich Schliemann can’t replace academics, who depends on funding. In a famous incident, the Prussian king fired a group of rebellious Goettingen professors, saying: “I can find new professors any day.”

  43. Great analysis, up to this point:

    “All of the megalithic sites are still attributed to cultures that could not possibly have produced them, all in the interests of burying them.”

    While the “mysteries” of the spread of ancient technologies are still “mysterious”, it is racist in the extreme to attribute those works to anyone other than the ancestors of those who occupied those lands.

    One can consider the racism underlying theosophical “archaeology” as the most extreme form of this racism.

  44. Ed: “…it is racist in the extreme to attribute those works to anyone other than the ancestors of those who occupied those lands.”

    Ed, I am not sure how to respond to this. By “ancestors of those who occupied the lands,” do you mean the earliest members of the existing cultures? Are you saying that we should attribute the Indian mounds to the peoples who lived around them at the time Europeans arrived in those areas – the same Indians who (as far as I know) admitted that it wasn’t them who built them?

    Or should we attribute to the current English/Scots/Irish/French/Belgian/German/Portuguese/Greeks/Swiss cultures the megalithic structures all over Europe?

    The site of Teotihuacan is not all that old, yet no one knows who the builders were, other than to apply the term “Teotihuacans” to them, as if that answers anything.

    70 years ago no one knew there was anyone older than the Mayans in the Tehuantepec isthmus, so everyone attributed certain things to the Mayans that we now know are Olmec. Rather than to admit “We don’t know,” the arkies time after time speculate that the ancestors of those who occupied the land” at some time in the past were the builders of such and such structures and sites. I believe those attributions are a wrong policy, no matter how sensible it may seem. If you don’t know, say, “We don’t know.” I think they are petrified that the public will kick them down a notch or two if they don’t pontificate.

    It IS part of the “We are the priesthood of the present” attitude. Priests of all ages are terrified that the parishioners will find out they are only the Man Behind the Curtain…

  45. Hi Hermann, Steve

    Steve, I will respond to your comments in my next post.

    Here is the current data from Atlantic Coast of Spain:

    http://blogs.courant.com/roger_catlin_tv_eye/2011/03/muddying-up-atlantis.html

    Note that the research team has not located an impact mega-tsunami strata from ca. 1,000 BCE (at least not yet).

    What they have located is an impact mega-tsunami strata from 2,360 BCE, the date of the Rio Cuarto impacts and the abrupt de-population of Malta.

    25 October, 2,360 BCE if the readings of the Mayan Hieroglphic inscriptions are correct.

    This date may check against the palaeo tree ring database.

  46. Hi Steve –

    “By “ancestors of those who occupied the lands,” do you mean the earliest members of the existing cultures?”

    Yes.

    “Are you saying that we should attribute the Indian mounds to the peoples who lived around them at the time Europeans arrived in those areas – the same Indians who (as far as I know) admitted that it wasn’t them who built them?”

    Steve, the mounds are remains of earth structures built by different peoples at different times for different purposes. There were no “moundbuilders” specifically.

    Usually peoples had moved between the times those structures were built and the time of European arrival, but not always. The Europeans watched Cherokee build mounds, watched other peoples use them, and when they asked the Shawnee who had built “Hopewell” structures, they told them their ancestors.

    “The site of Teotihuacan is not all that old, yet no one knows who the builders were, other than to apply the term “Teotihuacans” to them, as if that answers anything.”

    Actually, Steve the Natchez remembered the builders of Teotihaucan very well, as did the Toltecs.

    As far as claims go, it is highly dangerous for theosophists to use these mysteries of the past to advance the hypothesis of any one advanced super-race, whether they are Aryans or Lemurians.

    Since impact events explain many of the past’s “mysteries”, NEO-catastrophism is a direct threat to these con-men.

    E.P. Grondine
    “Golfing for Cats in Atlantis” with a swastika on the cover.

  47. http://www.sciencemag.org/content/331/6024/1532.summary

    Early Pleistocene Presence of Acheulian Hominins in South India

    Shanti Pappu1,*, Yanni Gunnell2, Kumar Akhilesh1, Régis Braucher3, Maurice Taieb3, François Demory3, and Nicolas Thouveny3

    Abstract

    South Asia is rich in Lower Paleolithic Acheulian sites. These have been attributed to the Middle Pleistocene on the basis of a small number of dates, with a few older but disputed age estimates. Here, we report new ages from the excavated site of Attirampakkam, where paleomagnetic measurements and direct 26Al/10Be burial dating of stone artifacts now position the earliest Acheulian levels as no younger than 1.07 million years ago (Ma), with a pooled average age of 1.51 ± 0.07 Ma. These results reveal that, during the Early Pleistocene, India was already occupied by hominins fully conversant with an Acheulian technology including handaxes and cleavers among other artifacts. This implies that a spread of bifacial technologies across Asia occurred earlier than previously accepted.

    Science 25 March 2011:
    Vol. 331 no. 6024 pp. 1596-1599
    DOI: 10.1126/science.1200183

    + Author Affiliations

    1Sharma Centre for Heritage Education, 28, I Main Road, C.I.T. Colony, Mylapore, Chennai 600004, Tamil Nadu, India.
    2Department of Geography, Université Lumière-Lyon 2, CNRS-UMR 5600, 5 Avenue. P. Mendès-France, 69676 Bron cedex, France.
    3Centre Européen de Recherche et d’Enseignement en Géosciences de l’Environnement (CEREGE), Europôle de l’Arbois, BP 80, 13545 Aix-en-Provence Cedex 04, France.

    *↵To whom correspondence should be addressed. E-mail: [email protected]

  48. to prove we were connected very recently

    I could but won’t start with
    Elishah/Elisha/ Alleg/ Ellisippo/Eleusian etc

    but I will do this with one everyone can figure out.

    when reading the tales about Allegewi I ran across a term that intreged me..
    the Mengewi were the ones who attacked the Allegewi .. since i knew what a Allegewi was , I had to question what a Mengewi was .
    so who were the Mengewi who attacked Allegewi , I figured that the answer had to be in south, maybe in mexico or south america. well I was very wrong.
    the possible answer that did come.
    well that answer has been very enlightening. so I thought I would share it .

    1 Mengewi =to Mene gewi (=)as to Alle(s/g) = to Allegewi. especailly if S and G are a J or SCH type sound.
    I asked a mayan if “Men” “Menes” or” Mene” was a person or occupation’, he never answered . I ask him how any word like this is used in mexico or south america . because it was something no doubts about it ….

    so what if it is a person.
    what if it is Mneseus

    2.’ the third pair of twins he gave the name MNeseus(MN/Menes/ Meni, these are different nations spellings ) to the elder, and AUTOCHTHON to the one who followed him’

    Read more: Plato’s Atlantis and The Kings of Atlantis, Gods of the Phoenicians http://phoenicia.org/atlantisplato.html#ixzz1KpBJ13ew

    3. so who was Menes?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menes
    Manetho associates the city of Thinis with the first dynasties (Dynasty I and Dynasty II) and, in particular, Menes, a “Thinite” or native of Thinis.[12] Herodotus contradicts Manetho in stating that Menes founded the city of Memphis as his capital[16] after diverting the course of the River Nile through the construction of a dyke.[17] Manetho ascribes the building of Memphis to
    MENES ‘ son, ATHOTHIS (it was not his son! it’s his twin brother ),[12] and calls no pharaohs earlier than Dynasty III “Memphite”.

    so it seems it is possible that Menegewi as it is related to Allegewi (NA)/Elisani ( brazil) Elishah ( bible) Elisippus ( plato) Eliseusian (sp? a religion ) etc etc might have been some very lost Egyptians the tribe/clan of MENES . so many years later took over some of their cousins Elishah/ Alles/ Alleg lands. since Egyptians have very high ( asian) elements .. Asian elements that did not come from asia….. well enough said… but it didn’t come from asia!

    Did you read where Menes was the only Pharaoh to be buried with a BOAT in his tomb !! now how might we have guessed that!

    so what if … the epic adventure Atlantis is the the story of ” all my relatives”, 5 on that side of middletarra(ian) and 5 on this side of the Middletara(ian) one twin on that side one twin on this side … what if it is the changes to our whole world that happened just a very few years ago . either 2800 or maybe 3200 years ago. it is of events no scientist has had the pebbles to explain.
    what if not long ago… the two Atlantian Islands ruled the world , one was probably Crete! the other one sank by a huge event yet to be described by anyone except Plato and that was of wrong because he thinks it was only that island but it was the story of all of Pangea , plato and what was remembered was partly wrong but close enough for anyone wanting to figure it out. I’m somewhat impressed so much was remembered .

    and every north American indian who knows their stories and legends knows which island that their ancestors had their part in.
    I suspect with enough time and help from The only Eye Witness, I could find all of the twins/cousins.

    but now it is a forgotten truth , why because God distoryed them then because they were wicked and raunchy and full of lies.

    yes He destroyed the world once, twice and more times for the same exact reasons over and over again . that likes to get forgot .
    but He will probably have to do it again for the exact same reasons. or maybe he has a plan and those in step will just stay the heck out of big daddies way!
    why because the facade of science and the worship of their own ‘ logic” , the religion of humanism ( eaten from the tree of good and evil man prefers to call “Logical” kind of like magical) through scientism has blurred true history with it’s own fantasies and of their own Grandiose fairy tales of ” Evolving” from slime goo and monkeys , why be responsible for your actions if you aren’t forced to right?
    it appears they as if “LIKE a GOD” they created their own reality, their own subjective truth, law and time …. yes their own leaping off into ‘perfection’ and intellect , “boldly going where no man has gone before!!”
    but really where no man has ever left.
    no sir there is nothing new under the sun.

    “Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. ”
    George Santayana
    now that is brilliant, yes now that is wisdom!
    so I will stick with eye witnesses of our worlds history! and do my bestest to not repeat it .

    so what if there was once Pangea , a place kind of like water world , ruled by two islands between the middletara(ian).. water water all around rings of Islands circled around ….just 2800 or 3200 years ago and( Rick’s rocks at levallois in the usa ) his rocks , and those sterile soils prove the connections.. and the Event happened After MN/ MENES rule and before the war of the sea people=Port ah gee ani( sea people of each king , leaving sisippo ani ( horse people of each king) in both the ” old world” and the “New world”. it had divided families ! some would never forget it. there was lots of other “occupations” of each king also exsisted!
    so I wonder who will build the real Atlantean museum dedicated not to ‘Crystal skulls’ ‘spacemen’ , ‘watchers’ or whatever and any other freakiness the unfettered imaginations of men can create with their own kind of monkey business..

    but a place dedicated to the whole world! to the real wisdom hiding in humanities failures and it’s their true history warts and all . a place dedicated to the truth about how all humanity has been de-evolving since their fall from grace.
    someone will because it is the truth , because it is provable!
    sorry evolutionist , but we have the bones with 6 fingers and two rows of teeth built to chew forever , created on the six day .. and we have the rocks and tools and they prove what the eye witnesses have always said( they are called Ooparts)
    scientism/ humanism you had your chance! 200 years of chances.. and boy did you bite it big time, not even kind of close . you didn’t even ask a decent question much less prove anything relavent.
    and you never dealt with the truth told by
    “all my relatives”!

    and while searching another subject I just found this.
    http://www.palanth.com/legacy/index.php?topic=1293.15

    oh yes connections lots and lots and lots of connections!
    Nope it takes no faith at all to believe eye witnesses of every age and of every nation , and of any and
    “all my relatives”!
    but it works for me!

  49. Hello for all

    Yes, indeed, it appears that the meteors and tsunamis are linked.

    Further potential tsunami triggers in the Mediterranean are submarine slides, meteorite impacts, and explosional volcanic activity, for instance around Sicily or in the Aegean Sea.

    See more on “Eastern Ionian Sea Tsunami”: http://www.geo.uni-mainz.de/1158.php

    regards
    pierson

  50. Pierson,
    some of those volcanoes may be of impact origin, e.g. Thera, a resurgent caldera. My suspicion is the NW trending ridges are the corresponding hotspot track. The other end should be an impact-generated LIP? Or at least a crater? Look at the lakes on the Greek/ Yugoslav border.

  51. Tough job – Looking for tsunami deposits in Greece and the Greek Isles, but I guess someone has to do it. I suppose the October beer fests provide training for dealing with raki.

    By the way, there are impact craters on the floor of the Mediterranean of unknown age. Discovered by a Greek team some years back…Hermann, how’s your German?

    One has to ask how the team looking at the tsunami record for Malta and the western med is doing…

  52. Hello for All

    The recent EDEIS map shows a more faithful landscape to the real situation of the craters around the world under investigation, which its validity index V varies from 4 (confirmed) to 0 (rejected) with intermediate values of 3 (probable), 2 (perspective) and 1 (proposed for further study).

    From what I’ve observed, the elliptical craters are very shallow, possibly formed by meteoroids of low density, so it is not likely to find craters into the deep ocean, Tsunami debris in contintes may become more viable.

    On the EDEIS map the craters in red should be less than 11.000 years old. On Brazil, the Panela crater is that little red spot at east. The map changes each year. Who knows that soon it will change radically?

    http://tsun.sscc.ru/nh/edeis.html

    regards
    pierson

  53. Hi Pierson –

    Thanks for the link.

    So far, the best type case for the investigation of shallow impacts has been the Rio Cuarto field. It was very difficult to establish the impact there.

    The surrounding area holds key definitive data, and as you point out, the same is likely to hold with tangential water impacts:

    In other words, if you can’t explain the deposits by seismic activity, and there is no crater, then you have to be looking at tangential water impact, as there had to be some force to move the water.

  54. Pierson –

    This will take us off-topic, but:

    I am glad Ed brought up the Rio Cuarto field. There are hundreds of highly elliptical shallow craters more or less aligned with the well-known ones north-northeast of the town of Rio Cuarto. This large number is south-southwest of the city and extend for about 200 km. I spotted them on Google Earth on the hunch that the shallowness of the Rio Cuarto main crater field (about 10 craters, if I recall) would suggest that the swarm might have also impacted farther up-field or down-field. I have GE images saved, if you would want them.

    I meant to draw your attention to these long ago.

    Since Rio Cuarto is now considered an impact site (as opposed to the Carolina bays), the chance of these other craters being impacts seems high. I say this because of the alignments, topographical similarities, similar shallowness, and the relatively consistent ellipticities of them all. I am NOT sure that these all came from the same swarm, though, because some of the groupings seem to have a slightly different general alignment.

  55. @Steve:
    There are hundreds of highly elliptical shallow craters more or less aligned with the well-known ones north-northeast of the town of Rio Cuarto. This large number is south-southwest of the city and extend for about 200 km.

    Great to have this craterfield for comparison with N America, the Carolina Bays. It really makes it more likely that the CBs are comet (debris) impact related.

    If these are impact generated by a comet debris swarm, then maybe this mechanism should be more strongly considered as a possible CB causation. This and Bob Kobres “boiled beaver” theory explains features nicely.

    Alternatively: From your GE study, is it possible this large crater field is the result of secondary ejecta impacts? This is the Michael Davias Saginaw Bay impact theory.

    Is it possible to decide which of the two theories is the more plausible one?

  56. Ed, By the way, there are impact craters on the floor of the Mediterranean of unknown age. Discovered by a Greek team some years back

    This is all news to me. Not sure tsunami deposits would be my first choice of research target in Greek islands. Hotspot tracks have very specific geology and geometry. As in so many cases, this is not much studied as a subfield in its own right by official geo folks.

  57. Hi Steve

    I believe there were several meteorite events from extinct comet or comets in the last 16,000 years. The palaeolagoons seem very promising. The possible impactites I’ve been finding on these shallow structures give me this certainty. These multiple events certainly promoted the great migrations of population in various regions around the world for millennia, with each new encounter, and created or reaffirmed ancient myths and religious beliefs on their interpretation. The rock art representations, symbolic or naturalists, can further our current interpretation of these cosmic events. Supported still by possible evidence on rock art I believe that the meteors came from the southern hemisphere.

    These ponds maybe oringin from close encounters between the orbits of Earth and these meteoroids, with frequency of millennia or centuries, as has already been proposed by many researchers for years.

    In some places the lagoons of meteoric origin are confused with other features of the landscape. In fact, the field of Rio Cuarto may be longer.

    Interestingly before yesterday, I was looking at the collection of meteorites, impactites, glass, tektites, and a specimen of the impactite found at Chapadmalal, Buenos Aires, Argentina, 800 km from Rio Cuarto, it is assigned to a very old(?) unknown(?) crater.
    http://www.flickriver.com/groups/[email protected]/pool/
    It caught my attention. On this region there are also those oriented and elliptical ponds.
    http://maps.google.com.br/?ll=-38.172454,-57.74869&spn=0.021221,0.038409&t=h&z=15

    regards
    pierson

  58. Hermann –

    Since Benny Pesier took the CC over to global warming scepticism, the impact community has not had a place to rapidly share information.

    After much back and forth, Rio Cuarto was proved to be the result of primary tangential impact. I go with the Carolina Bays being the results of the impacts of secondary ejecta.
    No primary impact markers have been found.

  59. Chick would never have been able to make one post to the CC. Dennis Cox might have gotten one, but that would have been it.

  60. Hermann, Ed and Pierson

    Here is a link to satellite images (about 40) of the entire Rio Cuarto field, from GE:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/?saved=1

    Let me know if you can’t access them.

    Images number 001 through about 004 are the currently accepted Rio Cuarto field. The ones SSW of the city are the ones I found.

    There are reasons to consider them to be other than impacts, but since the “main” Rio Cuarto ones have been accepted as impacts, these need to be considered, too. There seems to be nothing AT ALL to distinguish the “main” ones from these, since they essentially parallel, in line, and similar in gross morphology, too.

    Some of these are longer than 3 miles and several hundred yards wide. And all are shallow, just like the main Rio Cuarto craters, and essentially the same shape. There must be thousands of them.

    That is what I would expect from a swarm from a broken up bolide or comet. As I understand it, if it blew up in the atmosphere, the direction of the fragments is straight down. These didn’t do that, so it seems that would indicate the main body broke up before entering the atmosphere. Would that be correct, Ed?

    Steve

  61. Hermann –

    You said, “If these are impact generated by a comet debris swarm, then maybe this mechanism should be more strongly considered as a possible CB causation. This and Bob Kobres “boiled beaver” theory explains features nicely.”

    I would agree with these adding some weight to the CBs being a possible impact site. Whether from primary or secondary (ejecta) impactors, that would take some time to determine. With the extreme conservatism of scientists on this kind of craters, we may not see that determined in our lifetimes.

    Bob’s boiled beaver theory is ingenious, but I can’t see why the rapid outgassing of steam from beaver ponds would round them off, and especially not into parallel ellipses of almost the same ellipticity. it is a nice try, but I don’t see it happening that way. Beaver ponds can be all sorts of shapes – and they are always in the bottom of valleys (which is where streams happen to occur). After all streams are what they dam to make their ponds. And the pond shapes follow the natural terrain, with arms reaching into the bottoms of eroded landforms. How those many-armed ponds morph into ellipses is a real stretch. But then, so does is idea of ice ejecta as an ellipse producer. And even worse is the aeolian idea. As Bob suggests at the beginning of his short article, researchers at any given time try to stuff anomalous features into existing ideas, even when they don’t fit – which sometimes means that they stretch credulity with Rube Goldberg ideas. In an area where the prevailing winds come from the SW, aeolian forces are shown- in that area specifically – to produce changes to the NE sides of the bays. Those winds cannot elongate a hollow in the NW-SE direction. The forces are acting perpendicular to that supposed mechanisms needs – about as wrong as you can get.

    Bland, the Rio Cuarto impact skeptic advocated aeolian causes for Rio Cuarto and the many others (which they seem to have possibly found before me), in Nat Geo:

    Elongated depressions like those previously described around Rio Cuarto exist across the entire region. In any given locale, all depressions run parallel to one another. But from the perspective of the satellite it became clear that the “craters” weren’t craters at all—like sand dunes, they had been produced by the action of wind on soil and vary in their orientation according to the direction of local prevailing winds.

    Yes, aeolian effects are oriented WITH the wind at Rio Cuarto, but with the CBs, they are miraculously perpendicular to the wind. They can’t have it both ways.

    But it does seem that Bland was outvoted on Rio Cuarto, doesn’t it, since Rio Cuarto is included in the Earth Impact Database. So, where does that leave the CBs?

    As for Rio Cuarto, if the ten first found are impacts, then so are all of these. IMHO

  62. Hi Steve

    I believe there were several meteorite events from extinct comet or comets in the last 16,000 years. The palaeolagoons seem very promising. The possible impactites I’ve been finding on these shallow structures give me this certainty. These multiple events certainly promoted the great migrations of population in various regions around the world for millennia, with each new encounter, and created or reaffirmed ancient myths and religious beliefs on their interpretation. The rock art representations, symbolic or naturalists, can further our current interpretation of these cosmic events. Supported still by possible evidence on rock art I believe that the meteors came from the southern hemisphere.

    These ponds maybe oringin from close encounters between the orbits of Earth and these meteoroids, with frequency of millennia or centuries, as has already been proposed by many researchers for years.

    In some places the lagoons of meteoric origin are confused with other features of the landscape. In fact, the field of Rio Cuarto may be longer.

    Interestingly before yesterday, I was looking at the collection of meteorites, impactites, glass, tektites, and a specimen of the impactite found at Chapadmalal, Buenos Aires, Argentina, 800 km from Rio Cuarto, it is assigned to a very old(?) unknown(?) crater.
    http://www.flickriver.com/groups/[email protected]/pool/
    It caught my attention. On this region there are also those oriented and elliptical ponds.
    http://maps.google.com.br/?ll=-38.172454,-57.74869&spn=0.021221,0.038409&t=h&z=15

    regards
    pierson

  63. Steve –
    we need Bob Kobres to comment on his theory, let’s see if he can defend himself.

    Perhaps he will say the steam explosion is so sudden and violent that the CB ends up elliptical, but as you point out a large many-armed pond stands in the way. What exactly impacted? Iceblocks, other ejecta, or maybe comet debris – perhaps radiant energy from high altitude explosion of a cometary debris swarm, Napier, recently: In reality, this energy will be distributed over a large number of discrete areas corresponding to Tunguska-like fireballs. There is therefore an expectation of conflagration over at least continental scales following such an encounter.

    Such “Tunguska-like fireballs” might cause steam explosions in suitable terrains.
    https://cosmictusk.com/thar-she-blows-napier-paper-goes-public

    Glad you mention the aeolian theory, now defeated. There is currently some controversy as to whether these structures are actually produced by impacts (Schultz and Lianza, 1992), or by aeolian surficial processes, which form many similar features in that region (Bland et al., 2001, 2002; Melosh, 2002). Quoted from:

    http://www.passc.net/EarthImpactDatabase/riocuarto.html

  64. While on the subject, at this URL of Bob Kobres’, http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/cbaymbsc.html, I have two notes re the CB areal photo from 1930:

    1. The caption on the ~1990 photo suggests the CBs are “fading.” Perhaps not. In 1930 photos were developed manually, so the contrast we see is almost certainly due to the developer consciously developing the film with the intent to increase the contrast, especially since it was likely developed by a USGS person. It is possible the 1990 photo was developed manually, but not likely.

    2. There are white dots in the center of many of the bays in the 1930 photos. What are these? Are they something present at the time in the bays (unlikely), or are they an artifact of counting the bays (as if someone marked them one by one as they counted them)? Anyone?

  65. Steve –

    Science is not a matter of consensus. Nor of hopes.

    The facts of the Rio Cuarto debate are given in my book.

    The Earth Impact Database is limited to craters, for the most part, with the exception of Tunguska.

    Rio Cuarto and the Carolina Bays are two different features, not to be confused.

    It is important not to let your enthusiasm carry you away. The dates for the Bays are such as they are. That this is different than the date for the YD is well established.

    That does not mean that they are not secondary ejecta impact features – its just that that impact occurred at an earlier time.

  66. Ed –

    I did not think of the bays as coincident with the YD impact. And I am not pushing for any particular understanding or dating of either Rio Cuarto or the CBs.

    Your book is several years old now, and what is in your book may be superceded by newer information, though I don’t know that there is any new developments myself. No one has yet figured out the CBs. Rio Cuarto DOES have similarities to the CBs. The timing? Bland and his people thought RC’s dating was far different from what Schultz thought, based on the meteorites – more than were found under some – that his team found under some of the RC craters (which Bland thought were aeolian and not impacts).

    At this time, it seems to me the CBs and RC have conflicting data with which to date them. Wiki calls RC 10,000 years old, putting them at the beginning of the Holocene. You put RC at 2360 BCE if I am not mistaken (do correct me if that is wrong).

    Heck, it seems to me that no one has a firm date on the beginning of the Holocene, even. YD folks put it at 12.9kya. That RC page on Wikipedia says 10.0kya. That is 45% more time than since the year 1. That is too vague, and that is amazing.

    The lack of dating, plus the fact that scientists don’t want to admit any kind of impact or impactor that hasn’t already been proven out, makes it nearly impossible to sufficiently convince that anything happened at any time in the Holocene. Without a date or impact that they will accept, whew!

  67. Hi Steve –

    The approximate dates for Rio Cuarto come from impactites and 14C. The exact date was preserved by the Maya.

    As far as similarities goes, even the shapes of the Rio Cuarto scars and the Carolina Bays differ, not to mention the impactites at Rio Cuarto and the lack of them in the formation layer of the Carolina Bays. That is most likely because the Bays were NOT formed by hypervelocity impact, but rather by the impact of secondary ice impact ejecta.

    Wiki’s dates are useless – use Schultz’s.

    “Whew!” indeed. This is nearly an entirely new field of study, having really begun in the 1960’s, though some work on Meteor Crater was done in the 1930’s by Velikovsky’s main opponent, Shapely, following Moulton.

    What Shapely might have accomplished had he not had his time wasted by Velikovsky is one of those questions of history…

    Velikovsky’s use of Hibben’s field reports led to the trashing of Hibben’s work, which set back the study of early man in the Americas by 60 years.

    When George reposts the Assiniboine accounts after Berne, we’ll have a chance of finding a nice crater now that the two loons are gone.

    There are also other craters that are being examined to see if they occurred at the YD.

    Other than that, I could put to good use a nice chunk of money right now.

  68. Assuming that about 2/3 of all impacts are in the oceans, it seems to me that low angle strikes, such as those at Rio Cuarto, might well actually ricochet off the water causing massive tsunamis downrange and leave no crater.

  69. OK. The link explains it well. I had not pictured it like that. Thank you. And I would assume that because of that a lot more water vapor goes into the atmosphere than if a solid object were to hit the ocean.

  70. Ed –

    Shapely didn’t expend much time on Velikovsky. We know he never read him, and he probably didn’t spend much more time than calling up Macmillan and telling them to stop publishing.

    So how much time did it take out of Shapely’s career? Nothing worth mentioning.

  71. Steve –

    As I’ve told you, Leroy Ellenberger is THE Velikovsky expert, and he can tell you exactly how much of Shapely’s time Velikovsky wasted.

    Hermann, George, continuing on the topic of wasting time, please remove CL’s incoherent ramblings immediately.

  72. Ed, Hermann, George, continuing on the topic of wasting time, please remove CL’s incoherent ramblings immediately.

    That is totally up to George Howard, owner of the Tusk. I have absolutenly nothing to do with what appears on Tusk. Sorry.

  73. George,

    From my point of view for the last six months the Tusk has been used by Dennis to call me a liar, and by Chicken to call me a thief, while at the same time Chicken used the Tusk to promote a con.

    Their efforts stopped work on recovering at least one YD impact feature at a western lake, while causing me damage and aggravation.

    In general, as other impact specialists will not waste their time with this, they have damaged the Tusk as well.

    But then that is their intent.

    Chicken is now back babbling on about impossible impact mechanics for smaller bodies.

    I could write a few sentences to try and clear things up for Chicken about hypervelocity impacts, but again, clarification is not what Chicken wants. We saw that in the earlier exchanges with Chicken.

    Please remove Chicken’s latest incoherent ramblings immediately.

  74. CL –

    Praise be! and Thank G*d!

    We finally get down to it. Your problem with Nephilim and impact mechanics.

    What memory was being preserved in Joshua?

    1998-2002
    On the Joshua impact event
    http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc032098.html
    http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc032598.html
    http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc033098.html
    http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc012102.html
    http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc021202.html

    Please keep in mind that both the OT and NT were in the care of human hands. We don’t have a copy of the Book of Jasher.

    No impactites or meteorites have been found as yet in the areas mentioned. If you want to look, please do. For iron meteorites, the essential work is:

    Note on Karen Reiter’s “Die Metalle im Alten Orient”:
    An Essential Reference For Historical Work On Impact Events
    http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc020999.html

    Now please please stop trying to guide us spiritually, and seek some spiritual guidance yourself.

    In other words, please shut the f**k up, go away, and come back later on when you have your traditions straight.

  75. Hi Barry –

    For a “tangential” impact the impactor has to be “solid” enough and large enough to survive entry through a lot of atmosphere. Large enough so the compressive forces do not lead to fragmentation or dissociation.

    They would not “skip” when striking water. Nor would they bounce against their cavity. What happens at some depth of water, I don’t know – perhaps a point explosion.

    My guess for “small” iron asteroids would be that they would leave a debris field of small iron fragments on the seabed floor.

    What you conjecture about them producing tsunami without craters would appear correct, at first consideration.

    Pierson, Boslough’s model only holds for “friable” impactors.
    Also keep in mind the conversion of mechanical energy to other forms of energy.

    Over water, an airburst would probably be less devastating, and not lead to mega-tsunami, or even a less major tsunami. The blast winds would not be high enough to do that.

    Key Marco may be a good area to study this type of airburst.

  76. I’m getting a better picture of the whole scenario now. But I’ve also done more reading of the old stories of the Gods and their births, reproduction, deaths and generally bad tempers… (do you capitalze Gods if if they are plural?) I’m picturing a stream of cometary debris entering an unstable earth orbit… or maybe one giant hunk that breaks up in orbit. Some stories (and the amount of stories from all over the planet) make it sound like they stuck around for quite a while before the dragons/stones/thunderbolts actually attacted the peaceful earthlings. Seems likely such an orbit might be highly eliptical, and the most likely place things would de-orbit would be at perigee… closest, most gravity pull, and… most parallel to the surface, i.e., lowest angle of impact.

  77. And just another amateur question… I understand the impacts wouldn’t all be in the same direction because the orbit wouldn’t likely be either directly in or opposite the earth’s rotation, but has there ever been any attempt to correlate known craters with any particular orbital path?

    I guess since we probably have only identified a small percentage of the impact sites, even just on land, that’s probably a pretty dumb question, but with enough data in might be an interesting project.

  78. Ed, Re: Karen Reiter’s “Die Metalle im Alten Orient”

    “And just another amateur remark:” So the Iron Age likely another human cultural effect from Taurid comet debris! stream!?

    Thanks to archive @ abob.libs.uga, your note available today.

  79. Hi Hermann –

    We don’t know if some larger comets have concentrations of nickel iron at their centers or not.

    This impact may or may not have been related to Come Encke. We don’t know.

    As far as the Sun and Moon standing still, upper atmospheric dust after an airburst reflects sunlight, which keeps the ground lit up, as was observed at the time of the Tunguska airburst.

    Damn, but I’m tired.

  80. The Battle of Tolbiac ~AD 496 was won by Clovis (gave his name to the place in NM). Was it decided by “fire from the sky?” This note in French Wikipedia seems to suggest as much:

    Depuis 1995 l’Aviation légère de l’armée de terre a choisi sainte Clotilde pour patronne. C’est en effet à ses prières que Clovis put être victorieux à Tolbiac en « submergeant l’ennemi sous le feu du ciel », ce qui est précisément aujourd’hui la fonction des hélicoptères de combat de l’armée française.

    Perhaps a bolide hit the Alemans who outnumbered the Franks and sent them fleeing. Saint Clotilda was Clovis’ 2nd wife.

  81. E.P.G,
    the Tolbiac battle question was really addressed to you, because this involves Gregory of Tours, on whom you are the expert: He likely is the author of the French part in quotes, the phrase “submergeant l’ennemi sous le feu du ciel,” or “engulfing the enemy [the Alemans] under fire from the sky.”

  82. Whoops, sorry to let the Chick slip in! Been at the beach. I will permanently block.

  83. Thanks George –

    Hermann, I am a long way from French source documents. But from the commentator’s remarks, perhaps it was Clovis’s use of “Greek Fire”, and not impact.

    I can’t really comment beyond that, as my French and Latin skills were hit in my stroke.

    In any case, do you understand that your simple request would have taken me a month of work before my stroke, and that is with having the French source documents near at hand.

    Someone else will have to check this out.

  84. George,
    Ed seems to have had a stroke maybe about a year ago, or longer, and has slipped a word about it in his comments for a while (on your blog). I find his recovery of skills quite admirable.

  85. NOWHERE HERE TO POST THIS PROPERLY:

    George, could you perhaps create a thread here for showing images of possible impacts?

    I have this one

    Location 19°27’N 102°04’W

    I read this as NOT a volcanic feature – even though it is ON a volcano. I base this on what I interpret as its interruption of the visible contours of the volcano’s western slope.

    For anyone who would point out that this is right smack in the middle of the Trans-Mexican Volcanic Belt, ye, I know. However, there is nothing that precludes impactors from landing in volcanic fields. An inquirer merely needs to use some judgment in distinguishing.

    In the selected image I intentionally left in a small Paricutín-type vocanic cone directly west. I think this shows that though there is similarity with the “crater”, it is only in its circularity. The small volcano is conical with a small circular mouth. The “crater”, if it is to be seen as a volcano, has a “mouth” that is nearly 90% of the diameter of the conical outer slope of the feature. This seems much more consistent with a crater than a volcano.

    In addition, the caldera of the “crater” is flat, like many craters are.
    I have this one

    If GE did not screw up the imaging, this shows clearly that the feature is a discontinuity vs the slope of the volcanic slope.

    Hopefully the images came out alright. If not, go to these URLs:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/6071090027/in/photostream

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/6071143281/in/photostream

    This “crater” is about 1km in diameter. The Earth Impact Database has ones listed that are smaller. I notice that there is only ONE crater in their list in Mexico, and that is Chicxulub. Wow.

    In any event, this one certainly isn’t in their confirmed list. I wonder if they have a list of “definitely not” failed candidates. Anybody know?

  86. Crap! No images and messed up formatting. SORRY!

    I am batting like .100 or less on trying to insert images into comments around the web. This time it also screwed up the formatting of text. I have NO idea what I did wrong. I wish WordPress had formatting tools.. It really hinders me.

    Let me try one more time – just two images:

    …crossing my fingers…

  87. Anyway, if that isn’t an impact crater, then what is?

    Also, George, I repeat my request:

    Can you make a thread for us to post links and/or images of features we think are craters?

  88. Hello Steve

    Areas in the meanders of rivers, estuarine areas, or volcanic areas are the worst areas to a study of impact craters. The circular structure that you present is very suggestive. It seem too capricious to be just one caldera. A field survey may provide some clue.

    See on (any)googlemap screen in the corner right on up the icon link, just copy (the link) and paste in the text.

    http://maps.google.com.br/maps?hl=pt-BR&ll=19.449759,-102.064018&spn=0.101813,0.153637&t=h&z=13&vpsrc=6

    regards
    pierson

  89. Hi George, Hermann –

    Thanks for the compliment. It was very difficult to get to this point, and I have developed some pretty good coping mechanisms. For example, you want to have clear paths with nothing to stumble over, something to hold on to nearby, and a soft surface to land on.

    Yes, I had a pretty nasty stroke 5 years ago. Otherwise, “Man and Impact in the Americas” would have had larger type, more pictures, and read more smoothly. The ibook would be out now too, as well as my own blog.

    While I am better now, it still takes me quite a while to peck out these little notes.

  90. Scrambled bones and giants… just saw a program re ancient Greece. About 500 BCE or so, the Greeks were finding fields of (fossilized) mammoth bones. Having no idea of what a mammoth might look like, they collected the bones, arranged them as a human skeleton might appear, and buried them in tombs. Later Greeks, finding these graves, assumed they were giants/gods. The skeletons, except for the skulls, were very human like but 3 or 4 times the size of humans.

  91. Hi Barry –

    You will undoubtedly enjoy Adriene Mayor’s books on Fossil Legends. I have not gone back to Plato to take a look at his use of them.

    But in the Americas there really existed a very tall people, known as Andaste. For their physical remains, read the standard text on the “Adena”, Dragoo’s “Mounds for the Dead”.

  92. http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/5037295/1/
    something around 2800 years ago that killed all those people in a most bizarre way , yes by flooding a top of a mountain!
    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xlticq_roopkund-the-skeleton-lake_shortfilms#.UOTOrBx8WEx

    I don’t think this is our event here . but whatever it was there is a huge events of about 2800 years ago that has never been explained ..

    but then again their is very little difference between 3200 and 2800 years ago and I doubt every form of all their dating system because not one has ever proved anything real yet. most those dating systems have
    somehow ‘proved’ every one of their most stupid and ignorant imaginings they have ever produced.

    2800 and 3200 is awfully close or at least close enough that until they start asking real questions and answering real questions I won’t believe any of their goofy timetables they use to create their indisputable theories.

  93. Chicken, where did you get the information of 2800 years ago, and death by flooding, when the article you linked to mentions neither. This event occurred in the 9th century AD, not BC making it only 1200 years ago. 14C dating by Oxford University on the remains suggest a 850 +/- 30 AD date, and forensic analysis suggests they were not killed by flooding but rather from a sudden violent hail storm. Being in a mountain valley when it happened they would have had little shelter to escape it.

    Imagine being caught out in these events without shelter or protection http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03gWyFOFZ9c and http://www.jokeroo.com/videos/cool/massive-hail-storm-pounds-texas-pool.html

  94. well sorry Jonny dear . maybe I said it wrong. I sometime make my posts confusing because I think is shorthand sorry!

    let me try it this way because there was stuff you didn’t see or hear and missed completely and assumptions you made because you believed what he said.

    I am looking for the events of about 2800 and 3200 years ago.
    this one fascinated me and still does . and I don’t know what happened or when . but I also know he doesn’t really either.

    OK so some pilgrims going to the highest places dies.. when?
    well that is debatable.

    now they say in the video that Nanda Devi is a goddess of fire and distruction . but it is also just a name for that plain old mountain range and one of the highest place on earth.

    now the bunch of pilgrims went to the highest places and died. why ?

    that is all we really know everything else is theory . and still is in my book.

    so let play with a theory or two or three.
    why they went to the lake , now that lake even being a lake before that event is even an assumption.
    which by the way is most likely an impact site if you didn’t notice it … check again.
    so they were singing songs about a Husband and fire and distruction to be with his wife Nanda devi who is one of the incarnations of Shiva 2nd favorite wife Parvati who is incarnation of ) and so on ). now Shiva is the God of fire and destruction those at that festival were singing about what most likely happened on the mountain Nanda devi who is one of Shiva main wives. why is she a main wife maybe because they had so much interaction with each other over the ages ?
    so the questions really becomes maybe something like
    1 were pilgrams there to see the impact site/ s ( how many site ) / or even the range was built by Shiva impact events as a home for his wife Nanada devi ..
    2 were they there to sacrifice on the highest place/ impact site and it hailed on them ?

    3 were they just worshipping in the highest places of Shiva and Nanda devi love nest , and a meteor/asteroid rained down on them?

    so is this story about one event, two events or three events.. I guarantee it is bigger than a hail storm 1200 years ago !

    sciences ideas and dating systems make less sense that Shiva does , because they do not know the laws of any of these types of things , I know they wish they did , but I know they don’t ! and I know they make it up stuff as they go because of what they think they see .
    Shiva was Nanda devi husband , the video talks about his or her home. He is also the god of divine vengeance and fire and destruction!

    why did the pilgrims go to the lake ?
    to see the impact site or were they there when it became an impact site ? but they would have went there to worship because it already had a identity with Shiva and his wife Nanda devi and that would imply that the range was created by Shiva by fire and destruction for Nanda devi’s home.
    with a little bit of research you can easily find out the Goddess Nanda Devi is not goddess of fire and destruction like the archaeologist told you in the video . he twisted the story to meet his research. I will bet on that .. so what is the real story behind why the pilgrims were even there that yet to be questioned much less told.

    I am still looking for the very real events of 2000, 2800 and 3200 and 4799 years ago.

  95. well I have to oppologize I relistened to the tape again and the narrator does kind of say that
    Shiva is the God of destructions and fire.

    but never goes into why people were so afraid of Nanda devi. so my notes didn’t make sense.

    maybe they were so afraid. in awe of her because she required more purity and or humility than the pilgrims had anyway. and that is the reason the hail came.

    it is still just the tip of the real history of the area.

    so he didn’t twist the story

  96. http://dnaconsultants.com/_blog/DNA_Consultants_Blog
    seems they have the sand issue backwards.
    but at least they are seeing larger issues that are not resolved which is good enough for now !

    because it sure could get real funny if Michigan and those sand dunes and Alberta, Saskatchewan, Montana and North Dakota on out past the lakes to the falls and maybe hudson bay what if they all share the exact same sand, now won’t that be funny ! ;P

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