Good cribbed video here on the YouTube of one of the several television programs concerning the Clovis Comet. Unfortunately, it has a promotional URL pasted on the video through about half of the clip.
It is always comforting to see that, despite the best efforts of skeptics who simply want this story to go away — the cat is well out of the bag:
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Nice graphics, some of which were included for fill and were out of context. This video was clearly made for public consumption based on the repetition of the general premises. I object to the statement that we now have “proof” of a comet’s involvement with the disappearance of mammalian and human life in North Am. A more scientific statement would have been there is now “stronger evidence” or a “correlation of data” for such an event. But correlation does not constitute proof. And when dealing with forensic science, you will never have enough data to qualify as empirical proof. I don’t know, maybe that is just semantics.
The impact animations bring back my key objection to the origins of the Carolina bays. How do you get anything like a volatile projectile to survive either a surface impact or an air burst to create uniformly-shaped shallow divots in the dirt, and not leave any ejecta material behind?
Oh, they are all….even NOVA….full of mistakes. It is a tough story to follow, involves a lot background, and is easily sensationalized at the expense of the known facts. That said this kind of publicity is critical and the critics despise it (which alone recommends it). Never sacrifice the good for the perfect. I love it.
According to quality supercomputer simulations by Mark Boslough at Sandia Labs, Albuquerque, NM, in 2005, the momentum of a 35 km/sec object, whether iron, rock, or ice, causes the air burst to continue in the same direction from kilometers high in the air to impact the ground as a very complex dense gas (partly ionized plasma) jet at up to 5800 deg K, as hot as the surface of the Sun, with many megatons of energy — there just isn’t enough time for the gas to expand in all directions radially as from a buried ground impact burst or a stationary high altitude hydrogen bomb.
Ionized plasma implies complex electromagnetic effects, perhaps focusing the jet or creating various types of spinning flows, ranging from tornadoes to smoke rings to spinning disks, cylinders and tubes, which may maintain cohesion longer than a simple jet, or form two or more close jets — imagine rather extreme Northern Lights…
For smaller impactors at slower speeds at angles close to the ground, the pressures and temperatures on the ground may be milder, which may result in shallow oval craters without high rims — or an initial impact could throw ice, water, or steam jets to both sides or in all directions, creating great numbers of overlapping small craters at various distances.
It’ll take a lot of scientific effort to assess all the ground evidence, and expand the limits of future simulations. There is a world security issue — for instance a fairly small cluster of impactors in a dense metropolitan region can put enough dust into the high stratosphere to obscure sunlight for many years — curtailing food production enough to cause a billion deaths by famine, as calculated a year ago for only a 100 Hiroshima 15 KT airbursts over cities — about 1.5 MT of energy — reported in Scientific American.
http://www.nuclearfiles.org/menu/key-issues/nuclear-weapons/basics/2010_10_25_starr_1stcomm.pdf
“Similarly, in the January 2010 edition of Scientific American, Alan Robock and Brian Toon, the foremost experts on the climatic impact of nuclear war, warn that the environmental consequences of a “regional” nuclear war fought between India and Pakistan would cause a global famine that could kill one billion people. 2
Robock and Toon predict that the detonation of 100 15-kiloton nuclear weapons in Indian and Pakistani megacities would create urban firestorms that would loft 5 million tons of thick, black smoke above cloud level, 3 which would engulf the entire planet within 10 days. Because the smoke couldn’t be rained out, it would remain in the stratosphere for at least a decade and have profoundly disruptive effects.
Specifically, the smoke layer would heat the upper atmosphere, and cause massive destruction of protective stratospheric ozone, while simultaneously blocking warming sunlight and creating Ice Age weather conditions on Earth.
Humans have had some experience with this sort of deadly global climate change.
In 1815, the largest volcanic eruption in recorded history took place in Indonesia.
Mount Tambora exploded and created a stratospheric layer of sulfuric acid droplets that blocked sunlight from reaching Earth.
During the following year, which was known as “The Year without Summer,” the northeastern United States experienced snowstorms in June and debilitating frosts every month of the year, and there was famine in Europe.
Robock, Toon, and their colleagues predict that 10 years after a regional nuclear war, Earth’s average surface temperatures would still be as cold, or colder, than they were in 1816.
Most likely, the longlived smoke layer would produce a ‘decade without a summer’.”
The widely found YD start “black mats” (actually a variety of colors) may be evidence for similar processes.
Impact melt formation by low-altitude airburst processes, evidence from
small terrestrial craters and numerical modeling, H E Newsom & MBE Boslough
2008 Mar 2p abstract: Rich Murray 2010.11.17
http://rmforall.blogspot.com/2010_11_01_archive.htm
Wednesday, November 17, 2010
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3 times more downward energy from directed force of meteor airburst in 3D
simulations by Mark B. E. Boslough, Sandia Lab 2007.12.17: Rich Murray
2010.08.30
http://rmforall.blogspot.com/2010_08_01_archive.htm
Monday, August 30, 2010
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I’m embarrassed to ask, particularly after me gigging Dennis;), but how are you guys adding your avatar pics? I though I knew how to do it but I am flummoxed. ???
Hi George,
I don’t know about the others. But I just set up a profile on gravatar.com. WordPress blogs are all compatable with Gravatar, so the same profile, and pic, follows you from place to place.
Yeah, I did the Gravatar thing after Dennis mentioned it. Pretty simple. I haven’t found any other sites in which I participate that use it. Google doesn’t interface with gravatar, for instance.
George,
When you visualize the magnitude of the necessary devastation as depicted in the video to account for all the Clovis sites in North Am, it seems like there would be far more evidence for such a blast than we find today. Basically, considering such a blast, the biological surface of the continent would have been wiped clean, requiring a completely new start with an influx of organisms from Scandinavia/Canada and Central America. Data to look for could include distinctly different genetic markers in similar species below the mat compared to above it because of normal genetic drift. If we don’t find that kind of evidence, then it is unlikely that the same event that produced the black mat in the NE was the proximal cause of the mat in the SW.
On a related topic, I started reading through Firestone’s papers on his website you have linked here. The oldest one, on a postulated thermonuclear event that he dates to have occurred around 12.9 ka ago, directly competes with the comet/Clovis/YDB theory. It includes some interesting nuclear data, but also some unverifiable uniformitarian assumptions about nuclide ratios that bias his conclusions. Where does that paper fit in with your current model?
What those early papers have in common is that they are all pointing to evidence of a continental scale catastrophe. But in all of them, and no matter the authors, the nature of that catastrophe was a matter of speculation. None of them were founded on a sound astronomical model.
Perhaps the single most important data is the nano diamonds in the YDB. And as George’s experiments have shown, it takes an extremely powerful explosive event to produce them.
Forensically speaking they are also the biggest enigma as well. Such conditions, if directed downwards at the ground, should be capable of significant geologic change. Craters, or not, where’s the planetary scarring?
Firestone and friends cited the work of Toon et al for the estimate of a four mile wide something. And that broke up in the atmosphere, scattering debris over a continental sized area. But the physics required in order for such a large, hypervelocity, object to have time break up completely in the atmosphere without making a crater are difficult, if not impossible.
The Taurid complex provides a good astronomical model now. And that explains how the thing was probably already broken into countless fragments before it even got close to the Earth. We have numerous images of fragmented Taurid objects like SW-3, or comet Linear. And, as Bill Napier pointed out last year, the fragmentation of comets is now a well recognized path to their destruction.
But what of ground effects? The idea that such explosive energies could be dissipated in the atmosphere without significant modification of terrains, is as hard to swallow as the idea of a four mile wide bolide. But simulations on Sandia Lab’s Red Storm computer have shown that an object as much as a half mile wide, will still produce an airburst.
Last year Mark Boslough, and Horton Newsom, pointed out that a very large airburst big enough for the fireball to reach the ground should be capable of major geologic change. So airburst melt is a new kid on the block in the field of impact science. But we are only now becoming aware that there should be formations of airburst melt on this continent. And none of the simulations have considered the fluid mechanics of how the emplacement of such blast effected materials might work. We know that there should be significant ET chemistry in airburst melts. We know that siderophile, or platinum group, element enrichment would be strong supportive evidence of ET origin. And there are good candidate specimens in the lab. But so far no one has described an emplacement of airburst melt in refereed literature yet.
Impact melt is sometimes mistaken for ‘volcanic tuff’. And since the standard assumption has always been that impact events only make craters, and except for impact events, only volcanism can melt the rocks of the Earth then, if there are airburst melt formations on this world, every last pebble of the stuff has been mis-defined as volcanogenic. Is there an easy way to tell them apart? Probably, yes.
There are a few clues. During emplacement, any surface materials ablated, and relocated in an airburst would be in atmospheric suspension in a density current similar to a pyroclastic flow. But where the motive force for a volcanogenic density current is gravity, the motive force for a pyroclastic density current of airburst melt would be atmospheric pressure. Without detailed chemical analysis, how do we tell them apart? Can airburst melt be identified visually?
Using various materials spread out on a level concrete slab, and short bursts of compressed air to simulate the fluid mechanics of atmospheric pressure driven density currents, and then another set, on a slope, with gravity as the motive force like you would see in a volcanic eruption, I was able to show that the different motive forces result in distinctly different, and easily recognizable, patterns of flow that get ‘frozen in’ during emplacement.
I don’t think the world is ready for just how many thousands of cubic miles of pristine surface emplacements of wind-driven pyroclastic materials there are in central Mexico, and the American Southwest. And for which no volcanic system has ever been identified except in speculative literature.
A crater has been found in Lake Superior. I think a meteor hit the ice sheet above Lake Superior causing the spray of ice and water across most of North America causing massive flooding which killed and buried most life forms in North America. More information can be found at: http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=18&nav=messages&webtag=ab-geology&tid=1141
Yes, I also liked the video. It presents the most common assumption among researchers today, it is not to say that within a decade or less, further adjustments may be in vogue. The important thing is that discloses the fact of mass extinction and climate change from the end of the Pleistocene were caused by a cosmic event. Very good indeed. I recommend it. I will also put on my page soon.
Hello Terry –
Tecumseh advised “Trouble no man about his religion”, and Tecumseh was a very wise man.
However, being the fool that I am, may I suggest to you considering the idea that one of G*d’s days may not have been the same as one of mans’?
That’s about all I want to say on this here, and I hope you won’t think it rude if I don’t respond any further but instead follow the advice of a very wise man.
Hi Terry –
“The impact animations bring back my key objection to the origins of the Carolina bays. How do you get anything like a volatile projectile to survive either a surface impact or an air burst to create uniformly-shaped shallow divots in the dirt, and not leave any ejecta material behind?”
Secondary impacts of chunks of ice hitting at less than hyperveolcities.
But IMO the CBs are more likely related to a different impact at a different time in the Saginaw region.
Hi Dennis
“I don’t think the world is ready for just how many thousands of cubic miles of pristine surface emplacements of wind-driven pyroclastic materials there are in central Mexico, and the American Southwest. And for which no volcanic system has ever been identified except in speculative literature.”
Dennis, you’re right about denial and impact, but please remember that the features may be from a different event than the Holocene start impacts, perhaps tens of thousands of years older.
trrry did you know …. he can spit in the mud and make an eye where there was none. but he can’t count.
Geochronology as it stands to day is a rabbit hole of assumptive untestable crap. And I have no intention of debating the when of any of the materials I’ve identified were emplaced.
Except to note that they are in pristine condition.
But formations of airburst melt are only part of it. There is also the matter of too many small craters averaging 100 meters diameter to count in vast crater fields in west Texas, and New Mexico.
Or pristine oval craters in some of the dry lake beds of Northern Nevada, and in southwestern Montana.
The excuses you get when a scientist does not want to consider them is that they probably can’t be “confirmed” as impact structures, Either because they are skeptical of oblique impacts, or because large clusters of small fragments in an impact event would be “highly unlikely”. Or words to that effect.
But that is exactly the impact scenario Bill Napier describes in Paleolithic extinctions, and the Taurid Complex.
The point I’m making here is that there are more than enough pristine blast effected materials on this continent to account for enough violence to make that video look naively conservatrive.
If it isn’t an example of science in denial, it is at least an example of science asleep at the switch.
I know I said I don’t like to talk about the when. But sometimes you have to.
Those oblique impacts in Nevada can be confidently dated to the Early Holocene by beach lines that are lying across some of the ejecta plumes. Their trajectory is 24 degrees north by northeast. And downrange from them, the oval craters in those sedimentary deposits in southwest Montana have exactly the same trajectory. One of those craters draped an ejecta splash across an ancient meander of the river. Those sediments, and that meander, can also be confidently dated to the early Holocene.
Glacial Lake Missoula was still further downrange from there. Did they fall the same day the ice damn on the Clark Fork river failed? That ice damn had been stable for tens of thousands of years before it broke up. Was that impact shower the trigger for Harlan Bretz’s megaflood?
E.P. (is that what your friends call you?),
I take no offense at your observation. It has been made many times before by people of all stripes of faith. But I’m not sure how that would apply to this discussion. I have no disagreement with the possibility of, or evidence presented for, one or more cosmic impacts following the last ice age. In fact, the more I read here and elsewhere, the more likely I think it is.
My only difference in view would be in the timeframe involved, which I believe, based on the existence of prehistoric humans in North Am, that it likely occurred no more than, perhaps 4500-5000 years ago, depending on how fast people spread out from Mesopotamia/Shinar many years after the Flood. But that has no bearing on the interpretation of the origins of the physical evidence. Just the timing, which, as we know, is subject to unverifiable, uniformitarian assumptions in geochronolgy and the various forms of radiometric dating.
Neither my presuppositions in this matter, nor yours, prevent me from engaging in fruitful scientific discussions with you folks. I hope you feel the same.
If you would like to pursue your ideas via private communications, my email is [email protected]. I would enjoy the discussion.
–Terry
Dennis, interesting, about airburst emplaced melts. Just to clarify what I believe you say:
1) Even for the Tunguska impactor of merely ~50 m diameter, Mark Boslough found “a very large airburst big enough for the fireball to reach the ground,” and a small crater. But of course, “no major geologic change,” which would result from “an object as much as a half mile wide.”
2) Where you write “the motive force for a pyroclastic density current of airburst melt would be atmospheric pressure,” do you mean pressure inside a density current driven by the cometary bolide’s momentum? Then, the “motive force” would reside in the momentum of the comet mass. This was Mark Boslough’s specific discovery: To model the Tunguska bolide momentum-driven cosmic “blow torch” that hit the ground, made a crater, and then spread as a wind storm flattening trees in a large area. — Before, people had considered a high altitude explosion creating the wind storm, but Boslough proved the explosion reached the ground. Do I get this about right?
E.P. As a teenager I read a book about Tecumseh, as a leader, but don’t recall his wisdom being mentioned, sadly.
The Tunguska fireball did not reach the ground. It’s blast wave did though. Although many think that lake Cheko is an impact crater. To the best of my knowledge that hasn’t been confirmed. The fireball of a half mile wide air bursting fragment will most certainly hit the ground. And it will definitely be capable of major geologic change.
Dr Boslough’s simulations don’t in themselves ‘prove’ anything. They simply describe it. He’s quick to remind that proof has to be in good field work. And detailed analysis of rock specimens. What they show is that using a point explosion like a nuclear device going off at a fixed height is not a valid model of what happens in a very large airburst event. The simulations show the fragment beginning to explode high in the atmosphere, but it retains it’s downwards momentum, and it continues to descend in a kind of downwards moving explosion. So, instead of a solid object, it hits the ground as a supersonic blast of impact plasma that’s hotter than the surface of the sun. And that blast of heat and pressure is what does the work to the ground. Not the direct transfer of kinetic energy into the surface materials by a solid object.
The blame for the description of the geo-ablative nature of such an event, and its blast effected materials is mine.
The standard model for the emplacement of a pyroclastic flow is based on Pliney the younger’s vivid description of the eruption of Vesuvius. When an explosive, effusive, eruption like that happens it shoots up an ash column miles high. When the ash column consisting of superheated particles, and fragments, of partially melted rock collapses, and falls back to Earth, the materials remain in an atmospheric suspension as gravity provides the motive force for the pyroclastic cloud that goes thundering down the flanks of the volcano, sometimes at hundreds of miles per hour. When the superheated materials suspended in the fiery cloud come to rest you get volcanic tuff. Or ‘Ignimbrite’ which is Latin for ‘Fire Cloud Rock’.
The important thing to keep in mind there is that, while in motion, the materials were a fiery cloud of superheated gases, and partially melted rock. And gravity was the motive force. The whole process requires a volcanic vent, magma chamber. And slopes to flow down.
But the motive force for airburst melt would be the supersonic, hyper-thermal, blast winds of the impact vortex as the fireball reaches the ground. The impacted surface provides the source material as the impact vortex ablates it away like wax under a high pressure blowtorch. The patterns of flow produced during emplacement are reminiscent of the wind-driven froth one a storm tossed beach.
“Early Holocene by beach lines that are lying across some of the ejecta plumes”
really Holocene by soils levels? your not joking are you ?
In these events no one has a dang clue what actually happened yet ?
how can intellectually even try to claim that honestly, or even with a strait face?
dang and folks make fun of our religion.
dirt and soils levels in events they have not one clue what happened in , or even how many events ?
really how can you do that?
as I am sure you will naver make fun of anyone’s “faith” agaion hum? because you sure own lot of it in that geologic table of yours!
ps
ps they called Turtle island that for a reason!
and it really wasn’ t because someone here built a boat here or followed turtles here that is for sure!
Chicken little, Do you have even the remotest clue what you are talking about? Or are you just making a serious effort to be a common ordinary, rude, and isulting, web troll?
If you disagree with the early holocene age given by the USGS, of the terrains at those locations, perhaps you might be so kind as to say something remotely intelligent, like citing your sources.
Ms. Little:
It is because of statements like yours, and your lack of even an attempt at coherency and civility, that people like these make fun of your religion (which I assume is some form of Christianity). You might take a few lessons from your Savior on humility and wisdom before interjecting your unintelligible comments here again.
Sorry to be so harsh, but if you have nothing positive to contribute, you probably should just revert to a lurker status.
@Rich Murray –
“Ionized plasma implies complex electromagnetic effects, perhaps focusing the jet or creating various types of spinning flows, ranging from tornadoes to smoke rings to spinning disks, cylinders and tubes, which may maintain cohesion longer than a simple jet, or form two or more close jets”
Rich, I believe you said this in response to Terry’s question about the uniformity of the Carolina Bays. You are addressing it to an apparently direct result of an air burst, while the Firestone group talks about ejecta, and I think that is at least part of what Terry is addressing. Correct me if I am wrong on that. Boslough’s work is not about ejecta, not that I can tell.
As ejecta, or even as an air burst from 800 miles away, passage through the atmosphere seems to me to be destructive of any ejecta morphology. Like raindrops, they would be deformed to high heaven (no pun intended) by wind resistance – but at velocities beyond Mach 1 they would be shredded, unless my instincts on this are dead wrong. Yes, ejecta would tend to be solid ice at the beginning, and if their trajectories were high enough. But the impact itself would create all sorts of fracturing, and the forces dealt with during flight would certainly tend to shatter the ejecta into smaller pieces in flight. I have to think that many of them would liquefy, as well (which is why I mentioned raindrops). They would certainly be traveling through the zone of intense IR; whether any remnant of that remained as the ejecta passed through that zone, I don’t know. But I suspect some remnant heat would remain; the atmosphere would have absorbed some significant portion of it.
Conceptually, I see no chance for there being any homogeneity to ice ejecta. There would be everything from icebergs to waterfalls as they hit the ground. This is the first thing that came to my mind in reading Firestone. How could that wide of shapes and sizes create uniformly shaped “splats”? I even LIKED the idea of CBs from ice ejecta, but I recognized this problem with it.
Would there be any Mandelbrotting – localized vortexes and tornadic shapes – in the movement of the ejecta away from ground/air zero? Perhaps at first, but in their ballistic flight, many would have the aerodynamics of deflated hot air balloons. The atmosphere would just create a huge amount of turbulence. The models may not show that, but if there is none of it, I’d suspect the models are GIGO.
The ellipses of the CBs argue for some organization principle, one that we haven’t recognized yet. I think that is what Terry is arguing – that we are missing something.
@Terry –
“…Basically, considering such a blast, the biological surface of the continent would have been wiped clean, requiring a completely new start with an influx of organisms from Scandinavia/Canada and Central America. Data to look for could include distinctly different genetic markers in similar species below the mat compared to above it because of normal genetic drift. If we don’t find that kind of evidence, then it is unlikely that the same event that produced the black mat in the NE was the proximal cause of the mat in the SW…”
Not going for the whole enchilada with my thoughts on this, but a big blast wiping out the surface fauna is kind of what the evidence seems to show. After the Pleistocene-Holocene event – whatever it was – the vast majority of N.A. fauna were ground burrowers. By itself it isn’t definitive, but it argues in that direction. If this were math, one would say they are “directly proportional.”
You seem to be suggesting two different events at the same time. In and of itself, two events linked by their characteristics on the same continent and in the same time period – this seems less plausible than one big one that we haven’t determined enough about yet.
REALLY good puzzles are like this, especially something even remotely on this scale. The evidence will seem to be contradictory in many ways and complementary in other ways. It is clear that Firestone doesn’t have it nailed yet. SOMETHING freaking happened. Something big enough we can’t get our brains wrapped around it enough yet.
Lyell was floundering for a long time about a lot of his uniformitarianism, until Agassiz came along with his ice ages. Agassiz didn’t even agree with him on his gradualism, though, but shut his trap because being aligned with Lyell made his career. Also, even though we now think that Darwin had smooth sailing with evolution, there were gaps in it (and still are) that someone could drive a herd of bison through, and the opponents, till they died, never let the evolutionists hear the last of them.
It is possible that with a few more pieces put into place, that Firestone’s idea will become a new paradigm. But it looks like we will not be able to put all the pieces together seamlessly in our lifetimes.
It may have been more than one impact or air burst, in a swarm. At this point I think Ed has the right idea, that the CBs are from some other – less energetic – event. I floated out there the idea of hydrate fields bubbling up as an “out of the box” concept, only because there ARE some problems with it coming from the skies. As Ed’s book has shown (and other evidence, too), the indigenous peoples of N.A. DID experience some cataclysmic events associated with the sky, so a good deal of the search needs to head in that direction. But the problems, as we are seeing, may be insurmountable to draw the conclusion that Firestone’s people have arrived at.
…So FAR, anyway…
Steve,
about “How could that wide of shapes and sizes create uniformly shaped “splats”?” That is something which Bob Kobres’ Boiled Beaver page attempts to explain by some process of steam explosion, if I remember correctly:
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/blosteam.html
We know that it wasn’t a total extinction on this continent. I hope somebody will correct me if I’m mistaken. But I think it was something like 35 genera.
That video depicts pretty much a single bolide impact. But that idea is already outdated. A more likely scenario is a whole bunch of smaller stuff, as the Earth’s orbit took it through the debris of a giant fragmented comet. And that the comet was the progenitor of the Taurid Complex. If we look to ‘Paleolithic Extinctions and The Taurid Complex’, we read that that there is a very reasonable probability the Earth got hit by something like 1.1 billion tons of cometary debris during the course of that comet’s breakup. And there is no reason to think it hit all at once. Or all in the same place.
The Earth is moving along it’s own orbital path at little more than twice its own diameter in an hour. That’s also pretty close to the estimated width of that debris stream early in the comet’s breakup. So the progression of the event from one side of the continent to the other would have been over in about an hour. And we have a good explanation for why the western hemisphere took the brunt of it. The Earth didn’t rotate in front of the stream so much, as it flew through it.
I wonder if it might be possible to identify which habitats were hardest hit by looking at which species were hardest hit. What we would see, if we divided up the continent into zones, and looked to see if we could determine which regions suffered the highest loss of bio-diversity?
@Steve:
These latter ideas are quite interesting. After mention of electromagnetically-contained self-coherent plasma streams blasting down through the atmosphere, I tried to imagine fine plasma fingers extending from an upper atmospheric blast extending to the surface. There would be no solid matter to create a standard crater, but the impulse of the plasma might be enough to create a rounded dent in unconsolidated earth. The main questions to answer would be whether small, 100 m diameter fingers of plasma retain enough coherency, density, and energy through the atmosphere to accomplish this? And would this process be scalable over three orders of magnitude in size?
@Dennis:
Do you know of a resource that addresses biodiversity in North Am during the period we are speaking of? That would be something to look at for sure.
Hi Terry,
No, I don’t. But it’s a question I’ve been thinking about. So I just put it out there.
Hello
The model of the explosion of small meteoroids in the atmosphere has already published a fine of more than 5 years, and is consistent with what was observed in Tunguska, Meteor Crater: a rain of rock flour and various plasma gases.
It is believed that comets have heterogeneous composition: rocks, water and frozen gases in various proportions. It is possible to imagine that their fragments can be sometimes stone rock, sometimes ice and rocks of frozen gases. http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/050309_meteor_crater.html
http://sites.google.com/site/cosmopier/impact-craters/palaeolagoon-geometry
regards
pierson
Hi, Hermann,
The beaver pond genesis for the CBs is an entertaining idea, but such structures are invariably found astride stream beds situated in the low spots of drainage features. Considering that many CBs are located on locally high terrain seems to speak against this mechanism. I’m definitely beginning to warm to the idea of non-ballistic, high-energy fluid streams rather than ejecta causing the CBs. Should we expect to find thermal effects on mineral grains and organic materials in cores of the lower interface of a CB? And how would we know if they were formed in-situ or were allochthonous?
Terry and Dennis –
I went out to find something solid on the specific species that went extinct at the Pleistocene-Holocene transition and am laughing at our good fortune. I say good fortune, because before Firestone came up with the Y-D Impact Event, the overkill hypothesis was already being assailed for us, by the proponents of disease or climate change as its cause.
That was always my own take on it – how ANYONE could advance such a preposterous idea, that a few guys could even FIND all the millions of large mammals, much less wipe out them all out. When 90% of a mammoth would rot before they could eat it, it made no sense that they would preferentially stalk mammoths instead of rabbits and beavers.
I am sure that in the literature there are many more of pot shots at the overkill idea, and many more barrages in the opposite direction.
But my search was for the species made extinct, and I am still on that…
Dennis…”A more likely scenario is a whole bunch of smaller stuff, as the Earth’s orbit took it through the debris of a giant fragmented comet.”
The photos of Shoemaker-Levy vs Jupiter come to mind. There were 21 discernable fragments with diameters estimated at up to 2 kilometers. I believe any comet… or even a large asteroid… drawn into earth orbit inside the Roche limit, would be broken up by by earth’s tidal forces. Assuming, of course, it entered an orbit around the planet for a short time before impact, as did Shoemaker-Levy. That might also account for less massive cratering as objects entering the atmosphere from orbit would have more horizontal velocity than an object entering vertically, and it seems like they would lose more of their mass before impact.
Although I visit this site frequently I am always hesitant to post anything because I don’t have much of a science background. But I have read E.P.’s book and there are numerous legends all over the world of disaster coming from the sky. A comet that entered an unstable orbit for a few months/years might produce more such stories than a direct head-on impact.
For the CB’s, here’s a fun, and simple, impact experiment.
On a flat concrete slab, spread out a thin layer of fine sand. Then beside it, set a pan of water, and slush. And set off a small explosive device like an M80 in the middle of the pan.
When the slushy ejecta splashes out into the sand, and everything is allow to dry, you get a driveway full of perfect little scale models of the CB’s every time.
And there there might be something to the idea of extremely powerful electric discharge phenomena in a large cluster of Tunguska class airbursts.
In a typical, single bolide, impact event, the object produces plasma temperatures along its path during atmospheric entry. And initially, those temps are hot enough that electrons, and protons are stripped from the nuclei. All those free electrons make it electrically conductive. Get it hot enough, and almost any element you can imagine becomes a superconductor. But in a single bolide event that plasma trail does not extend all the way to the ground. Once the bolide has shed enough velocity in the atmosphere, the impact plume is no longer hot enough to be electrically conductive. And it’s not ‘Plasma’ anymore; just really hot gasses.
A couple of years ago I was told by a rather prominent NASA scientist (who I’ll leave nameless, and blameless, for now to give him room to change his thinking) that an impact scenario involving a large cluster of small fragments would be “Highly unlikely”.
But a careful survey of the Taurid family of objects, their orbits, and typical composition, reveals that that is not true at all. Most of the stuff in the asteroid belt is in stable orbits. And unless it gets knocked out of it’s orbit by something else, (highly unlikely) it is no threat. The truth is that we’ve had it backwards. The impact of a single, large bolide is the rare exception to the rule.
The scary stuff is in The Taurid Complex. And it is all already in short period, Earth crossing, orbits. Looking at objects like comets Holmes, Linear 1, or SW-3 we see that a typical daughter of the Taurids is extremely fragile, often even volatile.
The most likely catastrophic, large impact, scenario is in fact, a large cluster of smaller fragments.
What if you bring a billion tons of debris from an exploded comet like Linear, or SW-3, into the upper atmosphere at a low angle of say 30 degrees, or so, and at something like 33 km/s ?
Only the first fragments on the leading edge would fall into cold atmosphere. The rest would be falling into the impact plasma of those that’ve gone before them. And they’d just crank up the heat, and pressure. The electrically conductive impact plasmas might quickly accumulate to reach all the way to the ground. What would a full blown magneto-hydrodynamic plasma storm a few hundred miles wide look like, and do?
Per http://darwin.bio.uci.edu/~sustain/bio65/lec04/b65lec04.htm
pleistocene extinctions wiped out:
– Herbivores over 1,000kg — 100%
– Herbivores 100kg – 1,000kg — 75%
– Herbivores 5kg – 100kg — 41%
– Herbivores <5kg — less than 2%
Source not provided.
Do we need more specifics?
From
there is PLEISTOCENE EXTINCTION OF MAMMALS
IN AMERICA at http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/archeol/extinct.htm E. F. Legner, Professor Emeritus, University of California wrote:
Nix on the overkill theory. I won’t mention the other two Legner went into, climate and disease. He himself discounts them, and I agree. BTW, Legner waivers this page with “[For teaching purposes only; do not review, quote or abstract]”
Amazingly for an academic archeologist, Legner ends with
Few archeologists have the honesty or temerity to note the timing of Plato’s demise of Atlantis as being so close to the Pleistocene-Holocene and its extinction event. Perhaps he waited until he was emeritus so as not to threaten his tenure…
Hermann –
Thanks for the link to Bob Kobres’ Boiled Beaver page.
Having read it I have questions as to how it seeks to explain the alignments and the ellipticity of the CBs, in addition to the overlapping ones.
Overlapping certainly must be seen as different events in time, with the more perfect ellipse being the later event. There couldn’t very well be two overlapping ponds at the same location. Even one odd-shaped pond (which most beaver ponds are) would no tend to outgas steam and create a perfectly elliptical BC, not in any way that makes sense to me at the moment. What mechanism could align them all is beyond my comprehension, too.
As a speculation (as my hydrate one is), it has certain features that make sense, but the test is in adjusting it so that the ones it doesn’t explain can be MADE to make sense. I think Bob’s has a long way to go to adequately explain those features. I believe hydrates bubbling up during a seismic event has some of the strengths of Bob’s boiling beavers while fewer of his idea’s shortcomings. I DOUBT seriously that hydrates is the answer, but will leave it out there, just in case it triggers a better idea in someone’s mind.
Bob and I are on the same track. We both are looking for some secondary event in the ground, triggered by a primary event. His primary event is an ET event, and mine is seismic.
I would not go there if it was not for the implausibility (IMHO) of ice ejecta creating similarly shaped bays. Any hypothesis that does not answer that is inadequate, IMHO. I think there are 19 (now 20) hypotheses because of the shapes and alignments more than any other features.
Those who haven’t looked at them, should look at the Rio Cuarto extended field down to the SSW of Rio Cuarto. The bays there are much more elongated ellipses and all similarly aligned to each other – not perfectly their, either. The terrain is equally as flat and they are near a seismic zone, but NOT near the coast, which would likely argue against them being hydrates and more toward connecting them to an ET event. To my knowledge there are no beavers in Patagonia.
I think the bigger animals simply starved after their food supply was wiped out I note that the surviving species were the more mobile, adaptable, ones. And the ones that didn’t need much to eat.
Thanks Dennis for some dating at at last. All of us are not quite as fast as you to see this. Now which oblique impacts in Nevada and SE Montana are those you are refering to? Thanks, Ed
“I know I said I don’t like to talk about the when. But sometimes you have to.
“Those oblique impacts in Nevada can be confidently dated to the Early Holocene by beach lines that are lying across some of the ejecta plumes. Their trajectory is 24 degrees north by northeast. And downrange from them, the oval craters in those sedimentary deposits in southwest Montana have exactly the same trajectory. One of those craters draped an ejecta splash across an ancient meander of the river. Those sediments, and that meander, can also be confidently dated to the early Holocene.
Glacial Lake Missoula was still further downrange from there. Did they fall the same day the ice damn on the Clark Fork river failed? That ice damn had been stable for tens of thousands of years before it broke up. Was that impact shower the trigger for Harlan Bretz’s megaflood?”
Hello
Apart from explosions, fires and floods of rain or melting glaciers, tsunamis, among other effects, I believe many beasts may also have died of cyanide poisoning within these paleo lakes and not by thirst as happens today in Africa as many researchers think.
Cyanide molecules that make up comets can survive the airblasts.
Comets nucleus, made of dirty ice of low density, would escavate only a very shalow crater. A number of physical and chemical consequences of the comet impact are wortly of investigation. It is interest to discover whether cometary molecular species, such as CO2, CO, and HCN, could survive the explosion. The synthesis of new molecular species in the cooling fireball may be of interest, as well as the production of high-temperature species such as CN, HCN, and nitrogen oxides by passage of the shock front through the Earth´s atmosphere must also be considered.
http://books.google.com.br/books?id=7usK5g0pRzEC&pg=PA247&lpg=PA247&dq=impact+crater+HCN&source=bl&ots=Cqj6npEPWH&sig=cy6uZby_16VkMcQo1n3QGaHx1yk&hl=pt-BR&ei=tN7kSsLQNYLZlAfitKzoCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBsQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=impact%20crater%20HCN&f=false
Hydrogen cyanide (HCN) is an extremely volatile composition, and it is a commun molecule found on comets. Pure it can in such a way be found in how much gaseous the liquid form, have to its low point of boiling (25,7 °C) and the great volatileness. Bubbled it in water, a solution called hydrocyanic acid is produced, is a chemical composition that contains the cyanide anion (CN−1).
The most common are potassium (KCN) and of sodium (NaCN) cyanides. They are extremely poisonous to some beings livings creature. Cyanide ions interfere with iron-containing respiratory enzymes, due to ability of the ion in combining with the iron of the hemoglobine, blocking the reception of the oxygen for the blood, killing the animal by suffocating.
Cyanides has a fort smell of bitter almonds, and meets in certain plants, as Manihot, and in seeds of certain fruits (apples, peaches).
After the atomic power airblast and ground explosion of billions of meteors, in this semiarid region of Brazil with shallow, stony, and often crystalline rocks outcrop soil, thousands of depressions were formed on the ground. These structures were filled after the subsequents rains, forming lagoons where none existed before. But filled of mortal cyanits acid poisoned water.
regards
pierson
REALLY good puzzles are like this, especially something even remotely on this scale. The evidence will seem to be contradictory in many ways and complementary in other ways. It is clear that Firestone doesn’t have it nailed yet. SOMETHING freaking happened. Something big enough we can’t get our brains wrapped around it enough yet.”
THANK YOU STEVE AND YOU ARE SO RIGHT!
and THAT IS GOOD PLACE TO START anything!
BUT ALWAYS REMEMBER THEY CALLED THIS PLACE TURTLE ISLAND FOR A REASON!
ps ( for old worlld recorded clues Jason and the Argonauts, and read about the sea people wars with Egypt, Pict legends and Guanches legends and chinese records for plenty clues) !
40 years of being called crazy and ignorant by the sciences and their cohorts and converts has made me a bitter old lady , so I am out of here!
Hi Pierson,
So, are you saying that these paleolagoon features do not overly rocks or unconsolidated cover containing cyanide compounds? Very suggestive, indeed. I wonder how long it would take for rain or groundwater to dilute the CN- ions?
Off topic link: http://www.georgehoward.net/htmlfiles/september11.htm
Steve, perhaps Bob Kobres might take a look at this thread. His email is on his web pages.
Rio Quarto to me looked like low-angle impact craters. The analogy certainly makes ejecta impacts a preferred hypothesis to explain “to explain the alignments and the ellipticity of the CBs”, despite “the implausibility (IMHO) of ice ejecta creating similarly shaped bays.”
That demurrer of yours is asking for a calculation of what a super-hail storm of ice-blocks from impact at Saginaw Bay could do:
1) Would an ice-block much bigger than a house, or city block, be ejected?
2) Would it survive re-entry?
2) Would such a good-size ice block, after re- entry survival, cause a Bob Kobres-style steam explosion?
Chicken Little: If you are still reading this, how can you be bitter? Most of these folk would agree with E.P. that you are entitled to your religion, & to Him a million years is like 1 second. Since they know that Young Earth theories are disproved easily, we know you are uninformed, but so is any newborn baby until taught better (from this old applied math prof Jesus-freak science guy of 76 yrs).
and so to him a second is like millions of years to us?
if I am right we go back to the same place the same way we got here .
and well soon enough Wormwood will prove who was ignorant and who was arrogant. and also who can or can’t add I guess .
for those interested
try
Is 23 and 24 , and in REV
ep thinks he can catch it .
anyone taking bets?
I’ll put my money on the eye ball maker! since science can’t explain even why those work yet either .
have a blast !
It’s the first time I’ve found so many people contributing creatively, positively, and fearlessly to attempt to share and harmonize scenarios for a lot of diverse evidence.
If anyone sends me the location of a city or town near their residence, I’ll post whatever I can quickly find via Google Earth that might be evidential features with easy public access.
Look for blasted, cracked, tumbled, melted, glazed, and tossed rocks of all sizes — sharp edges suggest Holocene age. Jumbled ground litter and piles suggest rapid deposition by gas and water flows. Study the decorative 1-2 m rocks often placed on parking lots.
I woke up Thursday, Jan. 6 after a long dream in which I was inspecting the geoablation of a tall thin pinnacle of rock, and then sat up in bed against pillows for 40 minutes with a total blindfold, pondering the vagarities of plasma torch geoablation.
Most rocks have many fine cracks of all sizes, and most rocks are often cold and damp much of the time, for instance at high altitude at night during wet or winter weather.
A sudden blast of heat from IR radiation and then impact from a high pressure and density, very turbulent plasma torch will create what I call “popcorn ablation” — the water in cracks will flash into high pressure steam, cracking open the rock on all scales from a millimeter to a kilometer, and blowing the resulting slabs, rocks, and dust into the turbulent gases.
Chemical reactions at high t
Did you perform this experiment? Photos, measurements?
“Dennis Cox
January 7, 2011 at 1:14 pm
For the CB’s, here’s a fun, and simple, impact experiment.
On a flat concrete slab, spread out a thin layer of fine sand. Then beside it, set a pan of water, and slush. And set off a small explosive device like an M80 in the middle of the pan.
When the slushy ejecta splashes out into the sand, and everything is allow to dry, you get a driveway full of perfect little scale models of the CB’s every time.Dennis Cox
January 7, 2011 at 1:14 pm
For the CB’s, here’s a fun, and simple, impact experiment.
On a flat concrete slab, spread out a thin layer of fine sand. Then beside it, set a pan of water, and slush. And set off a small explosive device like an M80 in the middle of the pan.
When the slushy ejecta splashes out into the sand, and everything is allow to dry, you get a driveway full of perfect little scale models of the CB’s every time.”
It’s the first time I’ve found so many people contributing creatively, positively, and fearlessly to attempt to share and harmonize scenarios for a lot of diverse evidence.
If anyone sends me the location of a city or town near their residence, I’ll post here whatever I can quickly find via Google Earth that might be evidential features with easy public access.
Look for blasted, cracked, tumbled, melted, glazed, and tossed rocks of all sizes — sharp edges suggest Holocene age.
Jumbled ground litter and piles suggest rapid deposition by gas and water flows.
Study the decorative 1-2 m rocks often placed on parking lots.
I woke up Thursday, Jan. 6 after a long dream in which I was inspecting the geoablation of a tall thin pinnacle of rock, and then sat up in bed against pillows for 40 minutes with a total blindfold, pondering the vagarities of plasma torch geoablation.
Most rocks have many fine cracks of all sizes, and most rocks are often cold and damp much of the time, for instance at high altitude at night during wet or winter weather.
A sudden blast of heat from IR radiation and then impact from a high pressure and density very turbulent plasma torch will create what I call “popcorn ablation” — the water in cracks will flash into high pressure steam, cracking open the rock on all scales from a millimeter to a kilometer, and blowing the resulting slabs, rocks, and dust into the turbulent gases.
Chemical reactions at high temperatures will release energy and complex products.
Soon this messy agitated pool of gas, on scales from meters to kilometers in size and height, will cool, expand, and dump its mess of liquids and solids, causing strange flows and ponds, creating hills and dams and terrains ranging from complex badlands to flat areas,
with strata ranging from homogenized to layered to chaotic.
Voila! North and South America surficial geology…
I visualize a new approach to drilling and tunneling:
Focus an array of high power IR lasers on the rock face to drill many deep small holes, and then after cooling, squirt mildly salt water in and then heat the whole rock face with a powerful microwave pulse to vaporize the water, which will cause popcorn ablation in the hardest rock. The rock face if vertical, could have the initial small deep holes made at a downward angle, to hold the water in. This approach would minimize the cost and pollution of chemical explosives.
Anyone is welcome to file a patent…
Did you perform this experiment? Photos, measurements?
“Dennis Cox January 7, 2011 at 1:14 pm
For the CB’s, here’s a fun, and simple, impact experiment.
On a flat concrete slab, spread out a thin layer of fine sand. Then beside it, set a pan of water, and slush. And set off a small explosive device like an M80 in the middle of the pan.
When the slushy ejecta splashes out into the sand, and everything is allow to dry, you get a driveway full of perfect little scale models of the CB’s every time.”
Hi Terry
Unfortunately I know very little about the cyanide. I know what everyone knows: the contamination occurs by ingestion or inhalation, a lethal dose is 5mg/kg and 0.00005mg uqe kill an ant of 10mg, the antidote is the sodium nitrite!
The contamination may have lasted long enough to ensure that water accumulated in the ponds,for quenching thirst and to attract the megafauna surviving from the shocks of the explosions and forest fires of the catastrophe effects of the first time. The senary was catastrophic
I do not know how long the natural decontamination of the site of the shocks lasted. I can only imagine that the cyanide in its gaseous or solid forms, may have remained in the soil, in crevices of the rock long enough to contaminate water bodies that have accumulated in these depressions perhaps for months or years, as in volcanic lakes. Cyanide is lethal in small doses.
Someone on the area of contamination by chemical environment could make a contribution.
regards
pierson
Hi
Sorry my english is chaotic. But the post-impact scenario was really a disaster for animals and humans. Browse these ponds should have a Shamanism sense at those times. Still attracts the attention of many people:paleontologists, geographers, geologists, archaeologists, environmentalists… astronomers even amateurs.
regards
pierson
Ummm, Hermann,
Which Young-Earth theory were you thinking of that can be so easily dis-proven?
Once again, I don’t want to burden this discussion with the OE-YEC controversy, because it really isn’t germane. But if you would like to discuss it in more depth, please feel free to email me. My livelihood depends on presenting both sides of the controversy to students in textbooks, so I would appreciate any insight you might have.
My interest in the comet connection is understanding better the physics of the event, and also that I live just a few hours from a vast collection of Carolina bays here in South Carolina.
–Terry
Terry, you “don’t want to burden this discussion,” & me neither. Overall sci context is a huge edifice, and only the whole will be a good world model, yet fall short of reality. A mere hint: The Grand Canyon sequence of rock strata inspires awe. Geologists can read it like a book, it tells a long, long story, progression of type fossils, Uranium decay, etc. Does this help?
The GPS’s, and a few images are posted on my blog in a post called Oblique Impacts in Nevada. And the other group is described in a post called Southwest Montana
Hermann,
Well, there is the problem of finding gymnosperm pollen grains embedded in the Precambrian Hakatai shale of the Grand Canyon,so fossil order is a problem. And then there is the matter of the 300 Ma unit of sedimentary strata sandwiched between the Tapeats sandstone and the Kaibab limestone overlying the crystalline Vishnu basement rocks in the Kaibab upwarp that are smoothly folded, rather than fractured. You would think that during 180 million years after they were formed and then folded, these rocks would have hardened. The strata thinned instead of fracturing above the basement faults, the grains show no evidence of shear or elongation, and the grain cement matrix does not show evidence of recrystallization. They look like they were soft when the deformation occurred. The mechanics of formation don’t agree with the uniformitarian view.
As for geochronology dating techniques, well, young-earth geologists have repeatedly demonstrated them to be unreliable using the same labs and techniques the uniformitarians use. My favorite example is the Ar dating of rocks from Mt Ngauruhoe in New Zealand (LotR’s Mt. Doom). The ages ranged from <0.27 to 3.5 Ma. But the lavas all formed in last half of the twentieth century!
Unfortunately I know very little about the cyanide. I know what everyone knows: the contamination occurs by ingestion or inhalation, a lethal dose is 5mg/kg and 0.00005mg uqe kill an ant of 10mg, the antidote is the sodium nitrite!
The contamination may have lasted long enough to ensure that water accumulated in the ponds,for quenching thirst and to attract the megafauna surviving from the shocks of the explosions and forest fires of the catastrophe effects of the first time. The senary was catastrophic
I do not know how long the natural decontamination of the site of the shocks lasted. I can only imagine that the cyanide in its gaseous or solid forms, may have remained in the soil, in crevices of the rock long enough to contaminate water bodies that have accumulated in these depressions perhaps for months or years, as in volcanic lakes. Cyanide is lethal in small doses.
Someone on the area of contamination by chemical environment could make a contribution.””
well I have andedotalor and circomstancial evidence that suggests hunter gathers may have needed and or have come to need large doses of b17 , which was obtained later in the form of pemican from prunus products and is very much required fare at least around here and that comes from a couple of my lines. b17 is needed to slow or stop lupus/inflammatory type skin problems and heart and allergic inflammation diseases similar to lupus probably . and may be the anedot for too much nitrate in the american diet.. which seems to be killing so many natives .
maybe other hunter gathers need this diet also …(.see Hunza diet) .. but in north america the source of cyanide/b17 is pemican made from fruit seeds, plums and cherry, and choke cherry pits .
so interesting questions become
is it just my few lines ?
or all hunter gather genes require cyanide/b17
or only places which had huge impact/radiation or maybe your idea of ground type cianide levels .
or is it now needed only because they were adapted to the b17 in Pemican.
did they adapted to the cianide levels after the event. and thus required pemican after it also.
so as far as the possible link to cyanide levels which came first the chicken or the egg.. meaning did they require pemican from prunus of pits family because their genes adapted at this event or well just after this event as there was little left to eat of anything . or Have all hunter gathers always require large doses of cyanide and thus that may have helped them get through that event? but the mammoths probably ate lots of b17 too.. it didnt’ help them.
but we eat 10 + regular almond pits a day and sometimes more but smaller amounts more often. and if I don’t my hands crack and bleed and thick and hard..usually 5 to 7 at a time.
no we do not eat the sweet pits .. but bitter pits, just to be able to have normal skin and keep heart disease and probably some kind of lupus/inflammatory disease at bay.
this of course requires a lot more investigation to prove other hunter gathers who had large quantities of cyanide in their diets ….. did so because of an impact And not as an adoption to pemican or prunus in their diets . as those GA peaches and pits were important parts of their diets and food preservation.
so yes it appears right now that tested and scientifically proven ” whatever that is worth.” are my
“hunter gather” genes and we also require large amounts of cyanide in the form of b17.
“Terry Egolf January 8, 2011 at 8:55 pm
…As for geochronology dating techniques, well, young-earth geologists have repeatedly demonstrated them to be unreliable using the same labs and techniques the uniformitarians use. My favorite example is the Ar dating of rocks from Mt Ngauruhoe in New Zealand (LotR’s Mt. Doom). The ages ranged from <0.27 to 3.5 Ma. But the lavas all formed in last half of the twentieth century!…"
I'd love the references, especially free full texts — so could the surficial geology of YD air bursts be badly overdated?
Time, being only a humanly constructed illusion, is yet infinite not only in "past" and "future", but as well in a "present" that extends in infinite directions, which could, for instance, be considered as probable (alternate, parallel) history flows, as well as many infinite hierarchies from "below" to "above", and also infinities of awareness systems which have no sequential time frameworks, some being like pure simultaneously radically creative as pure visual or auditory art — and every bit of all of this radically and intimately interacts directly and creatively with every other bit — separation is always nonexistent and imaginary, but facilitates the miraculous freedom to be limited, scared, isolated, and miserable — but the only final outcome then can only be full return to unobstructed unity, which is untouched by any and all fantasies of separation —
note A Course in Miracles, by Jesus…
and The Nature of Personal Reality, by "Seth" (Jane Roberts)…
also Time Space and Knowledge, Tarthang Tulku, Rinpoche (Dzogchen, 800 AD)…
Hi
Now I have learned a lot about the medical use of cyanide, and its effects.
Medicine and poison are separated by a thin barrier and imprecise, it has been known since the times of Hippocrates and Paracelsus, or of the peoples of prehistory, from the traditional medicine or native, and still goes like: “When not kill, its effects may be unexpected”.
http://www.annieappleseedproject.org/laetb17cyan.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amygdalin
Sorry for all
Does someone on the area of environment contamination by chemical know how long the contaminants (cyanide) in the soil may be neutralized by natural processes?
regards
pierson
Hum now back to that subject i last posted and to bring it with the young earth subject…
as they have found salt water in a layer above the earth in the outer atmospheres . and the first flood? was it salt water and was the” firmament above ” crystal slat and water?
with little or not salt or radiation… they could have lived forever!
. was it salt that started our decay/de-evolution and it is b17 the antidote for salt and inflammation and hardening of tissues that brought! and hardening of the cells… that B!7 that made the people of
atlantis’/native america live so dang long?
ROTF!!
now my great great great great great +++grandpa live to be 110 at least and loved pork and smoked tobacco !
having blast you all!
chicken little turtle island
The biggest major obstacle to progress in the Earth sciences today, is the more than a century, and a half of untested gradualist-assumptive reasoning that’s been put on the library shelves in lieu of curiosity-driven, tested science.
Most of us who have identified potential catastrophic geomorphology, and which landforms have been previously described in theoretical uniformitarian/gradualist assumptive terms, find ourselves facing a two-fold problem. Before we can begin to describe what we think really happened at a given location, we have to dismantle all the untested, and untestable, uniformitarian assumptions for that location. And in most cases, those assumptions have gone unquestioned for so long they are treated by the academic community as empirical fact.
‘Know your enemy.’ Whether you are arguing the case for a young-Earth, or if you are arguing for an old Earth, ‘Neo-catastrophism’ you will first need to effectively show that the old uniformitarian assumptions are wrong for your study locations. In other words, you’re going to need to dismantle the uniformitarian argument before you can effectively present your own.
Whatever your views on Young Earth geology, or catastrophe theory, we are all dealing with the same obstacles. And fighting the same lies. And no group of people have a better handle on the gaping holes in uniformitarian landform theory than the creationists.
if the sciences declares anything non fact and then mocks it .. they are then relieved at having to disprove or prove it right? then we have the current state of affairs.
them ‘proving ” irrelavent” issues they have created in their own imaginations.
so what now we are required by them to disprove their wild imaginations?
no but I can prove eye witnesses and recorded history!
I can not disprove their wild imaginations, and I should not be required to either!
A bit on a tangent…
Rich, may I suggest that your listing of the author of the book “A Course in Miracles” as Jesus might be better listed as “Jesus”? Helen Shucman, the overt author, labeled her non-corporeal source as an entity she gave the name of “Jesus,” but Shucman was a woman with a sordid life and such a book from such a source would not be as readily accepted as one purporting to be from the one and only Jesus.
At the same time, I do agree with your listing of Jane Roberts’ Seth books as mind-expanding, for laymen and scientists alike.
I would suggest one a bit more scientific, “The Holographic Universe” by Michael Talbot. It posits that time and space both are a single holographic construct in which the human mind seems to have some capacity to direct or organize it, in ways that seem to lead to the inclusion of paranormal phenomena into “science”. Unfortunately the work done by the scientists Talbot discusses (physicist David Bohm and brain researcher Dr. Karl Pribram) does not seem to have been followed up.
I would agree with you, reality (space-time) does seem to extend in not only in the time longitudinally in the +/- direction, but also radially. But if reality is holographic, then it may not be merely a convenient construct of the human mind. At the same time, it may be our minds that creates the entire hologram in the first place.
Sorry, folks, for the digression. Rich, if you’d like to carry on a conversation along these lines, let me know and we can do it via emails.
Always surprises me the Plato dating “coincidence” does not come up more in popular coverage of the YDB debate, if just to make fun of it. Neither the legit proponents nor the popular criticism have much to gain from bringing up “Atlantis” I suppose, snicker;.
Sad. Clearly its all of a piece and our kooky aunts had decent insights.
Steve Garcia
January 9, 2011 at 12:56 pm
A bit on a tangent…
“Sordid” is opposite of any term I would apply to Helen Shucman, having studied A Course In Miracles since August, 1977, almost half my life at age 68 — as a user, not a believer — send me your sources re Schucman and any other critical materials, as I am very open minded — I took three classes daily last year for $64 monthly from circleofa.org in Sedona, in my mind the most thorough study center — yes, I hope you and anyone else interested in experiential routes to expand personal experience and identity will join our private discussion at [email protected] Rich Murray 505-819-7388 — Course in Miracles Society has the best well edited version, free as daily mailings http://www.jcim.net — various deeply sophisticated spiritual traditions seem to me to converge, including also Sufi ,Aurobindo, nondual Vedanta a la Ramana Mararshi, Poonjaji, Andrew Cohen, Gangaji, Eckhart Tolle and many other independent operators in modern nonduality.
more appropriate word would be
islands or “lands of the
blessed”
yes very sad… just the tell cowards to explain recorded history or they will remain irrelevant!
George,
For some reason, the Leave a Comment link on your Atlantis post sends me to a blank page…