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Younger Dryas Boundary identified in Chile
event October 8, 2015 comment 69 Comments

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Paleomagnetism and Mineralogy of Unusual Silicate Glasses and Baked Soils on the Surface of the Atacama Desert of Northern Chile: A Major Airburst Impact ~12ka ago?.

Pierrick Roperch, CNRS, Paris Cedex 16, France [email protected] 

Abstract ID:

60319 

Abstract Body:

Unusual silicate glasses were found in northern Chile in one of the driest place on earth, the Atacama Desert. The scoria-type melted rocks are littered on the ground at several localities distributed along a longitudinal band of about 50km. The silicate glasses have a stable natural remanent magnetization carried by fine-grained magnetite and acquired during cooling. At one locality, fine-grained overbank sediments were heated to form a 10 to 20 cm-thick layer of brick-type samples. Magnetic experiments on oriented samples demonstrate that the baked clays record a thermoremanent magnetization acquired in situ above 600°C down to more than 10cm depth and cooled under a normal polarity geomagnetic field with a paleointensity of 40µT. In some samples of the silicate glass, large grains of iron sulphides (troilite) are found in the glass matrix with numerous droplets of native iron, iron sulphides and iron phosphides indicating high temperature and strong redox conditions during melting. The paleomagnetic record of the baked clays and the unusual mineralogy of the silicate glasses indicate a formation mainly by in situ high temperature radiation. Paleomagnetic experiments and chemical analyses indicate that the silicate glasses are not fulgurite type rocks due to lightning events, nor volcanic glasses or even metallurgical slags related to mining activity. The existence of a well-developped baked clay layer indicates that the silicate glasses are not impact-related ejectas. The field, paleomagnetic and mineralogical observations support evidence for a thermal event likely related to a major airburst. The youngest calibrated 14C age on a charcoal sample closely associated with the glass indicates that the thermal event occurred around 12 to 13 ka BP. The good conservation of the surface effects of this thermal event in the Atacama Desert could provide a good opportunity to further estimate the threats posed by large asteroid airbursts.

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  1. Hey, George, it is always good to see something new… something to dig into…

    The first unfamiliar term in this for me is “native iron”. I more or less know what native copper is, but native iron is a new one on me.

    Education time, for me, at least:

    The main thing about native iron is that it is NOT meteoric.*** Though it often has nickel, it is iron with carbon in it. There are two types, Type 1 and Type 2 (very imaginative).

    Type 1 has 1.7-4.0% carbon, which is higher than high-carbon steels, which top out at 1.7%. Type 1 can come in big bodies. Some are as large as 25 tons.

    Type 2 has less carbon – normally less than 0.7% carbon, but as much as 4.0% nickel. It is workable, where Type 1 is too hard to be worked and has to be ground with carborundum or diamond abrasive wheels. Type 2 appears normally within basalt deposits.

    But BOTH are exceedingly rare. Right now the only real deposit of it is in Greenland.

    *** The first native iron found (1840s) was assumed to be meteoric because of the nickel content, but shortly thereafter was found otherwise (1870s).

    End of lesson for all of us…

    The native iron makes this a rare find, in and of itself. The native iron (telluritic iron) is found in droplet form in the current study, and that is normal for Type 2, whereas Type 1 is found in larger chunks.

    Other points in other comments (continued…)

  2. The heating down to a depth of 10cm-20cm (4″-8″) in situ is an interesting observation. HOW does clay get baked by an airburst?

    I’d like to see a map of the depths of this. If it a point airburst, then the 20cm should be in the center of a more or less circular hardened area. But such an airburst would have to be at a Boslough-friendly miracle height – not too high and not too low, rather Goldilocks-y.

    I am tempted to picture a nearly horizontal passage low over the ground, so close that ablation is happening ON the flying body and close enough to have the ablation vaporization happening/extending essentially to or ON the surface of the ground. An ablation tail extends quite a distance behind the face of a bolide, so this would provide a more forgiving time element to the heating-up of the ground. It gives MORE time – from the front of the vaporization tail to the end of the tail.

    For example, Chelyabinsk’s tail appears to have been several hundred meters long.

    For the clay at 20cm deep to be heated to over 600°C, the heating element had to have been hotter than that. (That rules out a lot of things.) But the heating SHOULD have occurred more at shallower depths. Did this study observe this? If so, the heating was either direct (from bolide ablation) or infra-red, I’d think – and if it was more or less equal with depth, one might suggest microwave heating in some manner of transmission I can’t think of.

    …One might suggest they look into the vitrified hill forts of (mainly) the British Isles, to see if there are similarities with this heating and the heating in those locations. It is my tentative conjecture that those vitrified hill forts were heated by bolides in low angle, low altitude paths. I THINK that is why the hill TOPS are melted but not lower down. I KIND OF think this might be what happened on with Dennis Cox’s ablated hills straddling the US-Mexico border deserts.

    With Dennis’ hills, there is evidence of flowing down, perhaps aided by some downward gush of wind or pressure. This seems consistent (at least in my mental picture of it) with an ablating bolide passing low and having TWO heating elements going on – 1. The infrared being emitted, and 2. The direct contact heating due to the ablated and vaporizing materials. The infrared is able to reach farther down the hillsides and weaken the materials thereon. The albation, being much more intense, directly was able to melt the materials on the higher elevations.

    One aspect of both Dennis’ hills and the vitrified forts is that the melting patterns are elongated. And they each SEEMS to be elongated in somewhat (but not exact) parallel directions as others near it. This to me suggests a bolide passage along the elongation’s axis.

    Mental exercise: Picture any bolide you’ve seen in any video, and that it is (as is common) on a low trajectory, but CLOSE to the ground instead of up high. What would be the effect on the ground? If it passes over some hills, what would be the effect? Would the hill tops be subjected to more heat in the passage of the bolide? I think so.

    In this, I do not NEED the bolide to become an airburst. Airbursting is only ablation, anyway. And hyper-velocity bolides ALL ablate, all along their trajectories in the atmosphere. No explosion” is necessary – nor does it happen. Boslough’s model assumes some explosive force, but ablation is itself the force – in the moment of vaporization of each melt droplet. Adding billions of droplets makes the appearance of a large explosion, but it is only more droplets vaporizing.

    With this proposed Atacama event, what is present there to melt? Sand of various kinds – but mainly silicates. That makes glass. For the glass to melt and the surface to remain basically what it was before (the clay is said to have been baked but not disturbed – and I am going with that), then the melting had to be done at an extremely narrow height range – while supposedly traveling at about ~5-18 kms per second. That is too narrow of a window of time to be realistic. That is IMHO a miracle airburst/ablation event – and one without an actual IMPACT! If traveling downward at the normally assumed 45°, the time element is just too small, too Goldilocks. A nearly horizontal passage give so much more time to melt the sands and so much more time to NOT hit the ground.

  3. Hahaha – That last gave me a mental image of HOW native iron droplets/grains can have happened in basalt. If the bolide is passing low and disintegrates, the bolide ablates/vaporizes a LOT of its material and the vaporization rapid expansion DOES expel them violently. (Chelyabinsk fragments were found several kms to the sides of the path.)

    Does this possibly give enough energy to each particle to drive it into the ground and into basalt? Enough energy to ADD to the heating from the bolide (via ablation temps and infrared) to help melt the sands into glass? And enough to MIX the iron from the bolide with the glass?

    To reach such a low altitude before disintegrating (or not!) the incoming object MUST have a high density. Low density never makes it to the ground; it disintegrates or ablates away. Mid density will get lower, but in a low angle trajectory it will be in the atmosphere long enough to ablate away most of its mass and disintegrate (ala Chelyabinsk). High density (on ANY angle) will make it to a MUCH lower altitude and give it a chance to IMPACT the surface. For a low angle object it MUST be high density to make it to or near the surface. High density means iron-nickel.

    I am thinking that the native iron/telluritic iron being present is in itself evidence that the bolide was iron-nickel. I disagree with the conclusions about native iron/telluritic iron. I am thinking that at least Type 2 DOES come from an ET object.

  4. When a bolide comes in, we see what? Fire and brimstone – white light and a smokey trail.

    When a bolide breaks up, we see what? Fire and brimstone, but more of it – more white light and more smokey trail.

    We go looking for fragments, and some are found.

    But what is 90%+ of what remains? Let’s think about what ablation is, the thing that devours the mass of the bolide. Ablation is the front face melting, and then the melt droplets are exposed to what melted them away in the first place – the heated air being compressed just ahead of the bolide. The droplets vaporize, and in vaporizing they are turned to dust – tiny particles. It is somewhat like ash from a volcano that we see in that case (for large ones) as a mushroom-like cloud and (always) as a wind-born cloud. The particles are in the millimeter and micrometer and nanometer scale size range.

    What makes them so small? They were part of the more or less solid body of the bolide and then they ewren’t. They get shredded by the process of vaporization – turning the melt into a gas – plus the incredible turbulence of the compressed air trying to get out of the way of the bolide. In a volcano the turbulence comes from the water and CO2 and other gases in the magma suddenly being able to expand because when exiting the mouth of the volcano the pressure is released. This outgassing has great velocity, and this shreds the magma. The magma was a liquid before it exits the volcano. The same pressure that lifts the magma up from the depths and out of the mouth of the volcano wants to go in ANY direction, just like all pressure does; pressure is 360°-360°. But then in the atmosphere the pressure is not constrained by the walls of the volcanic vent. BOOM! Upward it goes, but also OUTWARD, and shreds and shreds. And we see this as a cloud of ash, and the vast majority of the particles are millimeter down to nanometer size. That size range is what allows the ash to be borne by the winds, even around the world for the smallest ones.

    The bolide trail is much the same.

    But when we move that bolide close to the ground, the out-blown, vaporized ex-melt gas cools and becomes particles at high velocity. And then what I wrote above CAN happen (if close enough) – impinge on and into and mix with the suddenly melted glass and other ground materials. Melted glass doesn’t have much resistance to the particles, and some of the “particles” may even have still been melt when they impacted the glass melt.

    All of this seems reasonable and suggest that the idea of an “airburst” is more or less correct – if one makes the trajectory a low angle one and considers that all meteor ablation vaporization can be seen as airburts on a microsopic scale.

  5. Steve – All sounds good to me, especially the matrix of the bolide intermixed with the glass. I really like Dennis’s idea about the glazed sandstone petroglyphs, wish I still lived in the SW USA to re-evaluate the results with airbursts in mind. I recall being perplexed while looking at many of the petrogyphs and wondering how the iron could leach out of the sandstone and then produce a glazed surface as if from a above ground nuclear test. Also, I agree with the parallel movement of a bolide to the ground to provide more time to melt the surface and was thinking the shock wave could produce the same effect as sub-sonic ground effect such as low winged aircraft are much more forgiving during flare-out at landing than high winged aircraft and birds close over water, thus helping the bolide stay aloft if provided the optimal approach.

  6. Bard –

    Oh, yeah, the sonic boom would be tremendous, that low. Look at how powerful the one was in Chelyabinsk from 25km up and about 30 km distant – about 39 km direct line. The same size at, say, 2 km up, would be devastating, I think, just from the sonic boom. Some buildings would come down, and all that broken glass would have been flying MUCH faster.

    Probably knock some people out, too. Ala Saul on the road to Damascus.

  7. steve,
    as far as heat from a passing bolide,
    I was fortunate enough to witness a major fireball when I was young, even though it was approx. 100k up when it passed, you could feel the heat on your face as it passed.
    And in another instance a large fireball airbursted, in 95?, about 120 miles away from me and it still almost broke the windows on the house and rattled a redwood fence set in concrete

  8. Steve; I wonder if anyone has looked either forward or rearward of that area to figure out from which direction it had come. In my Drake Passage diggings I had a blogger mention about the idea of skipping from location to location. But in that instance I don’t believe it applied. Here it might be a possibility. Extremely low angle and hypersonic speed just might allow for the bolide to “skip” and possibly be more or less intact down range some where. Can any directionality be determined at this point from the available evidence?

  9. Steve; My curiosity got to me again and I went to on of my mapping sites and started looking around northern Chile. Without a town or lat – long I couldn’t look for the exact desert location for this glass. But I did come across a interesting pattern on the ocean side of Andes possibly in the same area. At the base of the mountain rise there is a semi-circular pattern (open oval) Approximately 1/2 way between Compi and Chipala LAT S19 degr 25’32.7666″, LONG W69 degr, 23′ 27.9802″. I’m going to read some more of the article to see if there is any more detail on the site location.

  10. Steve; On my last post I had a misspell on the one town in Chile it’s Chiapa, not Chipala. Also could not find anymore of the article and the link only took me to the authors e-mail. I did request a location clarification. Who knows he might respond. At my present employment we atomize aluminum into powder for various uses. The melt process sound similar to the ablation process. We melt 1000lb sows of aluminum and heat to approx. 12-1500 degr then blow it up a cooling stack at 300psi through a #50 hole in a nozzle. We blow up to 8 nozzles and consume around 1200 CFM of 300lb air doing this. Our powder goes to as fine as 4 microns. We usually produce 36 to 40,000lbs a day of raw powder.

  11. Jim – Thanks for the description of work. When George posted the alternative energy stuff I couldn’t recall a promising idea that I had looked into maybe 10 years ago. I think it was in Spain and or Israel and they were using Nickle dust and solar energy to produce Hydrogen. Just out of curiosity, what are the uses for Aluminum dust?

  12. They don’t have a clue what happened , and probably never will , but it seems they always got it dated , don’ t they!

  13. Jim –

    Some people actually thought that the Rio Cuarto craters represented impacts that skipped. I thought it was a possibility before Chelyabinsk, but after that I am less leaning that way.
    The elongation of the Rio Cuarto craters is a LOT, and is consistent within a short range.

    I should get out and measure them some day on Google Earth.

  14. Jim –

    At hype-velocity, would you expect something to bounce and retain its basic integrity? It doesn’t seem likely to me.

  15. Steve – I don’t have time to find the exact text at the moment. The first time I read the cuneiform text it sounded to me like people and animals getting blown apart and the body parts strewn up into the mountains, but the “king” was portraying that it was his power that did it, didn’t sound like war to me. Also there are a number of dismembered images on ancient cylinder seals and similar images at Catalhoyuk and Gobekli Tepe with what academia think are red vultures giving new life to headless corpses and regenerative bulls and totally miss the connection with the Taurid Stream and sky dragons/large winged birds killing life.

  16. I am going to add something to what I said about a low angled object being somewhat parallel to the ground. An object that comes in on a very low trajectory will have its downward angle get steeper and steeper as it loses velocity due to atmospheric braking. Chelyabinsk came in at about 20°, but the meteor curved downward – especially after its break-up.

    On the other hand, Rio Cuarto suggests that such low angles can be maintained to a high degree.

    This suggests to me one thing – that if an object at a low angle makes it close to the ground, it would have to be going faster than the 18-19 km/sec of Chelyabinsk. 18-19 is actually slow by ET standards. The fastest are comets which can come in at up to 70 km/sec, vs about 35 km/sec for meteors. Even the fastest meteor would be nearly twice as fast as Chelyabinsk, but for the most part the fast ones would be comets. But comets are much less frequent, so ODDS-wise ET objects are most likely meteors, while comets are the fast ones. Still, when comets come in, they come in. Each is a one time event, regardless of type. And both are fully acknowledged to have impacted in Earth’s history, so my thinking is comet for a low-angle near-surface fly-by.

    Now a low angle at the surface means a VERY LONG passage through the atmosphere, so the object would have shed a lot of material. Chelyabinsk lost 90% before break-up. Given that comets are SUPPOSED TO BE low density, that would be argued against by most, if not all. 67P, for example, has a density of about half the density of water, so such an object would have a tough time in the atmosphere and – regardless of size – would almost certainly break-up if on a low-angle trajectory.

    All in all, it does not seem that such a low-angle, low altitude passage is LIKELY. Impossible? Who knows? The obviously low-angle Rio Cuarto event and its craters are out there for all to see, and that was not just ONE object, but 10 or so acknowledged and HUNDREDS more farther SSW.

    The atmosphere is so much like a science fiction force field. It shields the Earth VERY well. Not 100%, but darned near. If I was a god and was in the process of designing a planet for sentient life to develop, I’d certainly want to include an atmosphere like ours.

  17. Here is an excerpt from my book which is similar to the other cuneiform text mentioned above. Notice the duality and mirror concepts which are common in ancient legends. This portion is from A H Sayce. The brackets are [my interjections]. The evil wind also knocks Adapa off his boat in another story.

    A Horary Pseudo-Science was the belief that in the Thunder Men heard the Voice of the Gods. The old belief marked its impress upon Hebrew as well as upon Assyro-Babylonian thought. “The Voice of thy Thunder was in the Whirlwind,” (Ps. LXXVII. 18.) says the Psalmist ; and nothing can show more clearly what must once have been the Canaanitish faith than the poetic imagery of another Psalm (XXIX.): “The Voice of the Lord is upon the Waters ; the God of glory Thundereth ; the Lord is upon many Waters. The Voice of the Lord is Powerful ; the Voice of the Lord is full of majesty. The Voice of the Lord Breaketh the Cedars [Tunguska]; yea, the Lord breaketh the Cedars of Lebanon… The Voice of the Lord Shaketh the Wilderness ; the Lord Shaketh the Wilderness of Kadesh. The Voice of the Lord maketh the Hinds to Calve [Also in Cuneiform Text], and Discovereth the Forests.” In the Talmud, “the Voice of the Lord” has become the bath qol, or “daughter of the Voice,” a supernatural message from Heaven which sometimes proceeds from the Holy of Holies, sometimes as Socrates assumed, a form of intuition directing the recipient as to his course in Life.

    This prophetic Voice of Heaven was heard in the Thunder by the Accadians as well as by the Semites. I have already noticed that the Accadians believed the Sounds of Nature [Including Bolide Blasts] to be Divine Voices, from which the initiated could Derive a Knowledge of the Future [NEO’s]. At Eridu it was more especially the Roar of the Sea in which the Sumerian priest listened to the revelations of his deities, and this perhaps was the Oracle through which Oannes had spoken to Men. In the rival city of northern Babylonia, where the supreme God presided over the realm of the Dead, and not over the Waters of the Sea, the Divine Voice came to Men in the Thunder. By the side of Mul-lil, the Lord of the Ghost-World, stood Mul-me-sarra, “the Lord of the Voice of the Firmament.” Mul-me-sarra, in Fact, was but Mul-lil himself in another form, and hence, as Lord of Hades, was the author, not only of the Thunder, but of Subterranean Noises As Well [Impact]. “A Darkness came from the middle of the Deep, the Doom Descended from the Midst of the Heaven, the Sword Mowed Down the Earth like Grass ; towards the four winds the Flash went Overthrowing like Fire. It Sickened the Men of the city, it Tortured their bodies. In city and land it caused Lamentation ; small and great alike it Smote. Freeman and handmaid it bound ; with wailing it filled them. In Heaven and Earth like a storm-cloud it rained ; it made prey. To the place of supplication of their God they hastened and Raised High the Voice. They received his mighty aid and like a Garment it Concealed them. They . . . . . . . him and the poison was expelled . . . . . . . they embraced his feet . . . . . . . his body was tired. In lamentation he smites his breast.” The Dazzling Fiend, the Evil Wind, the Assaulting Wind which Strips Off the Clothing of the Body like an Evil Demon, . . . . . . . [Shock Wave !]

  18. Steve; I realize that the odds of an ETO being able to skim the ground and possibly touch down once or twice before imbedding or exploding are slim at best, but I think possible and rare. Were you able to look at the coordinates I gave you? It’s interesting at the least and if that’s part of the Atacamba Desert or nearby it maybe a strong possibility. As I stated earlier I did scan down the length of the Chilean Andes and couldn’t find another feature that showed a round end, double rimmed feature going UP the base of the range. Also just to the ENE and just East to that site there numerous pock markings before reaching the highest peaks in that area. Also could not find them anywhere else up or down the range.

  19. Bard; Here is a basic list of uses for Al powder: Rocket fuel, (any kind), paint metallic ( automotive), refractory, roof coating, powder coating, deodorant, desiccants, bullet powder, floor sweeps goes into fireworks, printing ink metallic, many chemical uses, etc. etc. etc. Al powder is also highly reactive with water and releases H2 gas when reacting with water and white hot heat. Our major fear here is when we get a pop that shakes down the powder from the rafters which then come in contact with the resultant heat source and then goes KAPOWWWWW!!~!. One tenth of a gram of floor sweeps is the equivalent of an M-80 Firecracker. Bad ass stuff. Oh! I almost forgot! It also may or may not cause Alshiemers. I can’t remember.

  20. Jim –
    Yes, I DID look at the coordinates. In your coordinates you went to angular seconds and tenths of angular seconds, and on my Google Earth the location there didn’t show anything. Nearby was something kind of circular-ISH, but when I lowered the view to get an angular perspective, both sites were on wide ledges on the side of a desert promontory. I didn’t see what you described, or at least not any crater-like feature(s).

  21. Jim –

    About the Aluminum powder, I knwe it was highly flammable, and was intending to ask about it. But you filled us all in.

    Another thing you might be interested to know:

    Years ago I ran across an article that argued that the Hindenburg disaster was NOT because the hydrogen gas caught fire, but that the real cause was the aluminum oxide paint with which it was coated. The proponent of that viewpoint had worked with hydrogen for decades and knew what hydrogen looks like when it is burned, and he thought that the color of the flames was all wrong. (Yes, the disaster was filmed in color.) The guy researched and found out about the aluminum oxide coating. And THEN he was able to find an actual piece of the dirigible’s skin, with the aluminum coating – and was able to set a piece of IT on fire, after all those years.

    So, hydrogen gas has had a bad rap all this time, if he was right.

  22. Just a note. Saw a show from two engineers that prove the second explosions at the towers was caused by the sprinklers coming on and mixing with the liquid Al from the 30 tons of airplane.

    Of course the show mentioned that the report was ignored.

  23. David –

    I don’t want to go off topic, but I will try to make this general. I will say that I am one of very few engineers who worked with both designing structures and dealing with very high temperatures. I have a take on the towers that is as solid as a rock. I actually predicted – from a high temp and structural POV – that the top of the towers would fall, about 20 minutes before the first one went down. I expected the top portions to topple and probably fall to the street below. I did NOT expect it would take down the rest of the towers – but late when I saw the screwy design of the towers, I immediately comprehended why they fell all the way down. The stupidest building deign I have ever seen – before or since.

    Engineers: Engineers are a hard-headed group, and are good to listen to. However, there are a lot of people who have titles that others interpret as being experts. And you need to understand that not all engineers are equal. There are SCORES of specialties. Mine happen to dovetail with what happened. MANY other engineers are not qualified because they worked on stuff like automation, medical equipment, piping, foundations, even bridges and stadiums. While some worked in one of the two areas that apply – structures or high temp – very few worked in both. I DID work in both, so I know what heat does and how much heat it takes to weaken structures. Anyone who tells anyone that heat ws not part of the equation that day doesn’t know what they are talking about. Wild theories are not necessary. Damage to the structure and sufficient heat are enough, and there i nothing mysterious about any of it.

    …One of the very stupidest takes I saw on 9-11 was by a woman physicist who was an academic. She made the dumbest observations I ever heard coming out of the mind of a scientist, EVER – about some burning debris 20 feet from a car. She asked why the car wasn’t burning when that burning debris was there. Face palm time… Credentials impress a lot of people as giving some sort of authority on things. Not me. I listen to what they say, and if it is uninformed or wrong, I write them off as talking about things they have no expertise in.

    Also, just to give you a pointer: ANYONE who use the word “proves” or “proof” – steer clear of them. Real proof, except in math, is a VERY, VERY rare commodity.

  24. It looks like we now have empirical evidence of the amount of heat a low reentry angle and low altitude air burst boloid can generate.

    There should be a way to work out an energy budget for the event and then work backwards to a mass range for the object.

  25. Steve,
    There is a Nova doc. about a building in NYC, that was built around the same time as the towers, that had a major construction flaw, that almost caused the building to collapse in a hurricane in the mid 70’s.
    A architechural grad student was going over the original design blueprints of this building,when he noticed that there were discrepancies between the engineering dwg’s and the working dwg’s.
    The building was a external skeleton design, just like the towers, and the engineering prints called for all of the steel joints to be bolted and welded. But on the working dwg’s from the construction co, showed only bolted joints. The grad student took what he found to his advisor(a well respected NY architect) and they quietly took a look at the building itself and found that in fact the joints were only bolted.
    They ran some calcs and found out that the build would likely collapse in winds over a certain speed, basically hurricane level winds.
    They then took what they found to the building owners, and started to have the joints welded. For a couple of months, after hours, welder would come in and get into the structure itself and welded up the joints, about two weeks from being done a major hurricane was due to make landfall around NYC, and they stepped it up and hired every available welder on the eastern seaboard to get the job done before the hurricane hit. They finished the day before the hurricane made landfall.
    Aside from all of that at the end of the program the architect, noted that a very well known building complex, in NYC, built by the same company, had the same flaw, bolted only joints. WTC?
    I think this pgm aired in 2000.

  26. CevinQ –

    I think you hit the nail on the head.

    (WARNING: Techincal stuff that is OFF TOPIC here is what follows…)

    It is news to me about the other building, but I am certain that the (only) bolted joints did not HELP. The exoskeleton is exactly the design I think was the flaw. It isn’t JUST that there is an exoskeleton; and it is not because of the bolts. To me the main thing was the bracing that the exoskeleton required. Jeopardize that bracing and all hell breaks loose. IMHO because when the exoskeleton was breached and then heat applied at the level of the breach for long enough, the edge of the breach (the part that was being asked to support more than it was designed for) began a “zipper” collapse of that support for the floors above. It was borderline okay – as long as nothing happened to weaken it further – but with the fire, of course, the exoskeleton did get weaker. Structural steel is strongest at 400°F, and at 900°F is only about half as strong as at 75°F. The burning jet duel (kerosene) burns at about 1500°F. So you can see that without the fire it would have stayed okay, but with the fire it was only a matter of time. SOME of the steel was going to get weak.

    The manner of the collapse – with the exoskeleton – could only be straight down. It was like having a vertical square chute, and everything was being funneled straight down the chute. The outward pressure increased with each subsequent floor the debris fell down. THAT is why the exoskeleton looked like it was being blown outward – because it WAS.

    It was also that the bracing was what are known as steel joists. These are a common feature of steel buildings – but NOT as bracing. They only exist as the least important structural members, the ones with the least amount of demand on them, the least loading. They exist only to support the flooring and desks and filing cabinets and people – and not much more.

    I did a rough calculation once that a mass falling 10 feet delivers an impact equal to about twice the static weight. And what did this fall onto? The least important and weakest members – the joists. THOSE were what was keeping the exoskeleton from flopping around like a wet wash rag. That is the ONLY function of bracing – to make sure the vertical structural members (usually steel W-Beams used as columns) are not bending (buckling) under the weight. That means bracing every 10 feet or so. So, the joists were already doing more than joists normally do in a high-rise. Then dump 9 or 16 stories of debris onto the joists, and then what happens? They get blown away like they were toilet paper. Think of a falling bowling ball being resisted by a feather.

    THEN when the debris has a running start after blowing down through the first level of joists below, and the second level below has even MORE impact force hitting it. Each level of joists was subjected to more impact than the one above it. After about 3 stories it was like nothing was resisting it – which is why it fell basically as if there was no resistance (a point repeatedly touched on by WTC sloppy thinkers).

    The towers didn’t stand a chance, once the fire started. The fire could not be extinguished, so it was only a matter of time before the steel got close to 900°F and weakened. Note that the 2nd tower – the one with the impact lower – had more weight above it. So, the load on the remaining exoskeleton was greater, and it would fail in a shorter amount of time.

    The “explosions” that people heard? (And that I saw – poofing out as the debris mass passed each level…) You pointed right at it: Those bolts where the joists attached to the exoskeleton. As the debris hit each joist level, it was both pushing DOWN and pushing OUT – stressing both the joists AND the exoskeleton – impacting the bolted joints in two ways. Now, when a NORMAL bolt (65,000 psi) breaks, it sounds like a rifle shot. 3/4″ high-strength ASTMA A490 are the norm in buildings, with a tensile strength of about 150,000 psi, and when THEY break, it is like a grenade or a small cannon going off. And break they did. (you do NOT want to be close by. Normal bolts broke on one project in a plant I was working in – the bolts shot 200 feet across the plant like bullets and hit high on the walls.) The WTC bolts were already pre-stressed to about 75% of that loading (about 125,000 psi), when they were tightened (this is absolutely required), so when they got hammered by the debris falling, forget it – they had no choice but to break.

    It is my opinion that a normal column-and-beam building would not have failed from the same plane crashes. The entire combinations of factors was a perfect storm – and the exoskeleton was the primary factor. Them not welding the joints? Oh, YES, that would have probably DOUBLED the strength of each joint. This MAY have helped keep the damage from going viral – but perhaps not. It would come down to the details of the damage around the breach at the impact level.

    It is interesting that the show you talked about airing in 2000. It even might have been seen by the planners of the attack! One DOES have to wonder (does one not?) why they attacked the same buildings as in 1993! With all the buildings in the USA, why THOSE again? The show just may have convinced them to attack them again. We may never know…

  27. Don’t think the 2000 show made much of a difference as to the selection of the target. This was an attack intended to do what they failed to do in 1993 with the truck bomb. The Muzzies are nothing if not persistent.

    Ran across something years ago about the attack that said they intended to shove one building into another via the delivered energy of the impacts. That’s why the impacts were facing one another (180 degrees out) and not 90 degrees out. The faces they hit overlapped. If they chose the other faces, they wouldn’t have overlapped. The structural failure that brought the buildings down was unexpected. I’ll see if I can find a couple links.

    If you take a look at the second impact, the pilot almost missed the building. He was in a 30 – 35 degree left bank and pulling hard at point of impact. This is a pretty good turn for a large jet. Cheers –

  28. Unfortunately,
    A friend of mine talked me in to going to a 9/11 truther seminar.
    OMG what loose interpretation of physics and basic structural engineering they tossed about in order to support their conspiracy theories.
    It was funny too, because the local engineering community was reasonably well represented, and took them to task on many of their talking points, and were soundly ignored by the presentation team.

    Also,
    as far as the collapse goes, once that first floor dropped onto the one below it, the shock wave from that impact travelled down the beams faster than the floors were moving, so the joints had already ruptured by the time the stack hits the floor below.

  29. Steve; As to the Al oxide coating on the Hindenburg, I believe what it was covered with was Thermite- Al powder and Iron Powder mixed with a solvent oil base. Having worked here for a while(25yrs)I have had the opportunity to take apart some pumps and piping that had accidental mixing of Al paste with iron filings from badly worn pumps that when exposed to air O2 would burst into flames and can’t be extinguished except by burial in fire sand or in Metalex. That was a real scare. We had to removed 2 pumps and 100ft of piping that would catch on fire every time we broke into a joint. We just kept undoing the piping and throwing out the 2nd floor window as fast as we could while standing in Stoddard Solvent. As soon as the Thermite got some air it would get insanely hot FAST! Talk about pucker power!

  30. Steve; I used the coordinates provided by the mapping site I was on. They should have been pretty close. The feature I was looking at was directly south of Camina. It looks somewhat like a giant thumb print, closed and whorled to the top end and open at the bottom. Could be from erosion higher up coming down and filling in the lower end of the site. Or maybe I’m just hallucinating again. I wish I had a more exact location for the glass find.

  31. Jim – Sounds like a fun job, not. I was in Green Valley when PEPCON went up and even drove up to about 2-3 miles from it. There was a huge mushroom cloud with a yellowish orange column through the black broken smoke and we could feel the heat radiating from it. It burned for about a week with the trail of smoke almost over my house to the North which the swamp cool sucked in. I recall the authorities assuring us that it is safe to breathe and also how the EPA raised the ammonium perchlorate safe minimum above what Lake Mead jumped to. That was back in the day when you could feel your house move over and back about an inch instantly from the Nuke tests. I’m sure they will come running when my pancreas goes off the deep end. Hopefully, we will put all that technology to good use and avert the next big space fall.

    I see this mythology and ancient legends is going to be a tough sell. Seems like a slam dunk to me, you’ve got the smoking gun, the dead mammoth, the missing Clovis, the Carolina Bays, and world wide testimony… I have even figured out Gobekli Tepe and so far not one question from numerous attempts to get the message out. Must be a credibility problem or people are convinced myth is synonymous with a lie.

  32. Returning to the point that we now have empirical evidence of the amount of heat a low reentry angle and low altitude air burst boloid can generate.

    Let’s consider what would have happened to a 1/2 to a mile thick glacier in the Cosmic Tusk scenario if North American glacial sheets got hit by the thermal energy that could heat clay at 20cm deep to over 600°C.

    _AND_ it had a rain of billions of droplets of large grains of iron sulphides (troilite) thrown into the ice sheet at the same time.

    Molten iron is going to flash vaporize ice or liquid water to steam as it settles through the ice sheet to via gravity and imparted velocity from ablation.

    So there will be a “swiss cheese effect” on the structural integrity of the ice sheet from the surface down as far as the iron sulphide droplets settle.

    These pathways will be violently uneven as steam pushes in all directions taking the path of least resistance through the ice.

    On top of that, literally, the top layers of the ice sheet tens of meters thick will vaporize and melted. Releasing huge clouds of steam vapor to affect the weather over a continental area and large masses of boiling liquid H2O.

    This speaks of a biblical class flash flood with the ice sheet essentially “rubblized” by iron droplets and washed away by the top layers of water following the paths of least resistance created by those droplets.

    And all of this without a single geological time scale major crater site.

  33. Jim –

    You got me. I can’t figure out where you mean. Can you go on GE and check visually and give THEIR coords?

  34. Bard – I agree with you that ancient acounts are not going to convince anyone. And, yes, it IS because they think the accounts are untrue.

    They always throw in a straw man argument about the school whisper line – where one kid whispers into the ear of another, and the whole class passes it down the line until the last kid – and mo and behold, it wasn’t what the first kid said.

    Well, that would be good logic – but only if the telling of ancient accounts was a bunch of school kids who thought they were playing a game.

    But if you told those kids that the whole class gets ice cream if the last whisper matched the first one, the kids would get serious.

    THAT is what it was like in those ancient societies – the keeper of the ancient history doesn’t think it is a game at ALL. And neither did the people in the group who had heard it many times before. I liken it to when my daughters were 3 years old and wanted to hear the same damned book read to them for the 50th time – if I misplaced ONE WORD, they would correct me. No “History Man” in any such group would get away with telling the story wrong. And when it was passed on to the next History Man, that one would have to PROVE he was worthy by telling the stories for his mentor AND to the group. It was serious sh*t to all of them.

    The gist being that the stories were taken VERY seriously and would NOT have been allowed to change over time.

    However, the arkies are convinced that the school kid scenario is the reality, so they blow off everything that is not within their own dogma. Thus, only solid science will ever be able to overthrow all their biases. NO ACCOUNTS from ancient societies will ever be accepted – until such accounts agree with the accepted forensic science – and even then only as a sidebar.

  35. Steve; I’ll try to get on GE at home later Friday. I’m sure you’re probably looking at it, my focus is circular in an angular world. A neighbor of mine had told about how easy it is to spot deer in the woods, just look for the horizontal lines in a vertical world. First time I tried it there were deer everywhere where I had not seen them before. As before locate the blip of a town called Camina and it’s directly South and slightly east of there. I’ll see what GE has for #s and let you know. Trent needs to throw in the fact that the ice sheets were already in retreat and the peripheries were already pretty weak and unstable.

  36. That last sentence in my last comment, “NO ACCOUNTS from ancient societies will ever be accepted – until such accounts agree with the accepted forensic science – and even then only as a sidebar,” was meant to say, actually, that until the arkies come around to the science that underlies the ancient accounts POV (that one or more catastrophes happened), they will not accept anything that the ancient accounts say.

  37. Steve – That is a great presupposition except that isn’t the case. I wouldn’t have bothered to publish a book if it didn’t contain substance. Matter of fact it is so packed with relevant information that I dare say it has more substantial discourse than any other book that I’ve read. The whole premise is that at the end of your whisper line from virtually every culture the answer isn’t wrong, they essentially say the same thing. It is beyond my understanding why this information isn’t already widely known. I guess one has to read a boat load of it with an open mind to see through it all and a lack of prudence to speak out. I’ve been winging it on a plan for promoting it without spoiling the story.

    Most of the cultures of Mankind all point towards the Pleiades as the causality of the Deluge and Fire from the Sky. The Phoenicians’ have the legend of the seven sisters and Electra fell from heaven and landed to the North and devastated the planet. The North American Indigenous People say there were seven little boys and one fell to Earth and produce a crater. The Mexicans say it came from the Pleiades and stuck up North. The Chaldeans say the Sky Mountain landed to the North. The Japanese say it hit up North. The number seven is ubiquitous world wide and it isn’t the Sun, Moon, and the five planets, nor is it Canis Major, they are talking about the Pleiades where the Taurid Stream appears to comes from, the same as the progenitor of Comet Encke. The oldest written record is the Seven Tablets of Creation and the Gilgamesh story with the first “Arky” story. Ishtar goes through the seven gates of hell to rescue Tammuz (her husband of life and verdure) also in the Bible with women weeping over his death to the North. Also, Ishtar asks her dad of the sky to bring down the Raging Bull of Heaven to smite Gilgamesh (the Sun) and she is warned that it will bring seven years of famine. There were seven stages of the Tower of Babel. There are seven sages of China, Chaldea, Rome, ect. There are seven sisters in the Eddas. There are seven chambers in the Great Pyramid and seven corbelles, and I bet one of the “air shafts” points to the Pleiades. The Egyptians, Hebrews, and Chaldeans call the Pleiades stars Athyr (Hathor the Egyptian Bovine who kills mankind.) which is Arthur of the British. The Aztecs had human sacrifices to advert another end of the world when the Pleiades would culminate at midnight. In Borneo they said the mother hen came down to devastate the earth. Quetzalcoatl was the seventh son of Iztacmixcohuatl. The Auroch has seven marks over its shoulder in cave art. The Jewish have seven flames on the menorah. Noah was instructed to gather seven pair of every clean animal. Jericho and seven trumpets. In Revelation there are seven plagues and a bunch more. It goes on and on.

    I think it is a bit remarkable that this group thinks the Comet hit up North at the Great Lakes just like many ancient cultures. There is NO WAY all of this could have been fraudulently orchestrated in the deep dark past. And on top of that if one looks at the most ancient site we know of, Gobekli Tepe, with a mythologically educated mind it becomes obvious. There are Twelve stones (the Constellations) circling the two heroes (In most of the stories, the Sun and the Monster) and under the one with the cat around its waist are carved in stone seven birds of the PLIEADES ! The book even goes deeper than that. Halloween is coming up and those little kids coming to knock on your door are there to remind you to propitiate to the Comet or the Sun will be taken away as your trick which just happens to be when we cross the Taurid Stream at night.

    Watch : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHG9URGDt6s at 17:57

    I’d love to here how I’ve been let astray. Where is my honorary Doctorate ???

  38. If some disbelieve part of what I’ve said I found a great video recently from someone who has without doubt done his homework and is on the right tract and probably knows more than he is letting on. The only part I learned from this particular video was the stabbing point of the bull which I had over looked, but recall reading about Mithra and had thought about it being a silly part of that animal to kill it. This one point is the only part that I can think of that academia equates the bull with regeneration because the vine grows out of the wound, but grapes grow on a vine and is most likely a symbol of the Pleiades which are equated with grapes or clusters and also the mistletoe within Icelandic myth which kills Baldr (the Sun).
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75hVrv392BY
    He also has some great videos on the precession of the equinox or great year.

  39. Bard –

    Honestly, I an not saying you are wrong on this. I agree with pretty much all you say. I am only saying that to the arkies and anthros none of this means squat.

    You: “I guess one has to read a boat load of it with an open mind to see through it all…”

    My point is that the arkies and anthros do NOT look at it with an open mind. Even the ones that will sit down and listen to these ancient accounts blow them off as being beside the point. To them, you have to be talking gradualism, gradualism, gradualism. The minute you mention catastrophe, they tune you out – and the horse you rode in on.

    You: “That is a great presupposition except that isn’t the case.”

    Actually there is no presupposition to what I am saying, not at all. If I was wrong, the arkies would have long since beat you to the punch. Thea arkies 100% ASSUME that all the ancient accounts are myths. That way they can blow them off and avoid considering impacts. As soon as ONE of them refers to anything as “a myth” that goes in their trash bin, never to rise again in “civilized discourse”.

    You can write till you are blue in the face, and they will never listen to you. I wish it wasn’t that way, but it is.

    The ONLY path from here to there is via what the YD Team is doing – forensic, lab tested and measured, evidence on a broad front – quantified tests that can stand up to the rigors of replication. Even THAT undeniable evidence is being denied by a small group f loudmouths who know which magazine science editors to put out their misguided misreading of the evidence.

    I recently wrote a post on my blog entitled, “”

    A commenter wrote:

    Sandy Barham September 2, 2015 at 6:43 pm

    The diverse data supporting the impact hypothesis is lining up better than any geological story I’ve ever seen (I’m a geologist). It is rock solid in my opinion. The best overview that I have found is this (Allan West) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2uvhX3D7YI
    although the audio/video quality leaves something to be desired.
    Nice Site

    This is how the YD will be accepted as an impact event. Once that has been accomplished – establishing through QUANTIFIED science that there was, with certainly, an impact at that time – only then can anyone among THEM begin to accept and investigate the things you write about – without ruining his/her career.

    The ancient accounts can be talked about till we are all blue in the face, but the arkies and anthros and geologists and astronomers will not accept any of it as cogent unless the impact is established first.

    It’s like a court of law, and in courts of law there are hierarchies of evidence. At the bottom of the hierarchy in courts is eyewitness evidence by untrained witnesses (lay people). Above that is eyewitness evidence from trained observers – cops and military personnel. At the top is LAB evidence – tested and measured quantified evidence – FORENSIC evidence. Evidence like autopsy reports, video recordings, fingerprints, DNA evidence, and sometimes radar evidence (to some degree).

    Take that lowest level of evidence – eyewitness evidence by untrained observers. Then add thousands of years of time. Your evidence – much to our chagrin – is BELOW the bottom of the hierarchy of evidence that courts use. Their “lawyers” will chew it up and spit it out – because of

    1.) the class of observer,
    2.) the passage of time, and
    3.) the vague interpretations ancient languages (most translations are terrifically off the mark, IMHO)

    Hell, I myself, if asked, could rip huge holes in the interpretations of the arkies – just on their cherry picking terms and words to suit gradualism and the belief in the mumbo jumbo religions as being ubiquitous. I would do it because I think they make the wrong assumptions based on gradualism and arkie mischaracterizations of ancient people as being stupid (I think it is the arkies who are stupid). The arkies would do it for other reasons.

    Either way, the translations are crap. But since the translations are the arkies’ translations, the arkies WIN – because they are the ones who are the jury, too.

    So, at this time and for the foreseeable future, the ancient accounts are useful to use as pointers, but not admissible in the court of academic acceptance.

    You can talk till you are blue in the face, and it won’t do a bit of good. Not when it is the arkies you need to convince. They won’t even listen to you. And the people who DO listen to you? They are not part of the equation. It’s like a court of law asking the people on the street to rule on guilt or innocence – it ain’t gonna happen.

  40. Thanks for the feedback. Just read the above part of your blog (didn’t know you had one.). That was good, all this time I figured you as a stanch engineer. I guess my commemorative doctorate in Comparative Mythology and Divinities won’t be showing up right soon. I don’t have access to a neutron microscope or other means to pursue those other aspects, I unexpectedly ran into a library who would do inter-library loans after 30 years of asking and happened to fall back into the subject and heard the call at least twice that someone should look into the mythological aspect. The thought of delving into mythology and seeing past what has been rehashed over timelessly and looking for a veritable answer from a practical novice standpoint wasn’t that appealing, but I wanted to find out for myself and then all of a sudden the slope grabbed hold of me. I decided to let the comet catastrophe scientists and others I felt deemed have a first look at my interpreted evidence this summer as I prepare for the next blinding winter. As soon as I get snowed in again then I’ll play the other cards to promote the book, From The Deep Ocean Above. The old world and the new world tell of four ages and I find it hard to believe that they go beyond the -13KBP point and the only other is the 2300BC event that stands out, but there is a lot of silence between he two and I suspect that that most of that evidence is below the sea level rise. As far as I’m concerned we have been set back way too many times in the “recent” past to not wake up from our Comet-ose and seize our moment! It is too bad that “scientist” of trained stature are blinded from the classroom truths and can not be bothered with well thought out tangents. Bet they never find fossils and mammoths right in the gradual sediment layers.

  41. Bard –

    Yeah, we’ve been set back more than once. One way of reading the Greenland ice cores is that what happened at the YD onset appears to maybe have happened many times in the last 50,000 years. Oh, no one will accept that as true, but the spikes in the record are there for all to see. And if the YD is tied to one of those spikes, why WOULDN’T the others mean the same thing? This is a BIG reason many can’t accept that the YD wsa aan impact – because they SAY (based on nothing more than their opinions) that none of the others was an impact, so the YD couldn’t be, either. Time will tell…

    There have been EIGHT Heinrich events, blamed on icebergs calving off of eastern Labrador and bringing (mostly) dust to be deposited on the N Atlantic sea floor. The YD is considered by some to be Heinrich event #0 – called H0.

    Dansgaard-Oeschger events in the 50-13kya period (most of which was “ice ages” but not all) are only artifacts of the Greenland ice cores, but are accepted as definitive. The D-O events are all spikes in the O18 record that are VERY similar to the YD. They occurred fairly consistently at intervals of 1470 years.

    Bond events are the same as the D-O events, except that they are in the Holocene (the last 13,000 years), and even have the same 1470 year cyclicity. What is with that? They don’t rightly know yet… BUT… they COULD be some of those “four worlds” that the ancient cultures talk about. (At the same time, maybe they only KNOW of four.)

    The weird thing is that the D-O events and their 1470-year cycles were during (mostly) ice ages, while the Bond events and THEIR 1470-year cycles were NEVER during ice ages. How one (DpO) can be attributed to icebergs and the other not, boggles my mind.

    More later – gotta run!

  42. Steve – Off hand I don’t know of those events, all I recall is a mathematician trying to figure out the cycles of the Earth with 40 years of work and about 4 -5 different cycles to explain the ice ages. I lean toward impacts to explain the ice ages. From the verbal record it sure seems that very little is recalled before “Creation” aka the -13KBP Event. Like I’ve said before the record is very scant and I *try* to constrict my mind to between -13KBP and now. I haven’t found much at all about the ice cores. I still think the oil drill cores will tell a lot at the edge of the continental shelf at the end of the Mississippi River, if one looks at the GE image one can see that the river went straight at the intersection of the Red River at one time and there is a plume of debris inline at the edge of the continental shelf. I’d love to see the record at -13KBP right there, bet there is evidence at least of a major dump-age of material all at once. BTW, I noticed looking at my black board while taking a break and there is only one missing if all four ages happened with in my constraints, there is the day time hit at the 1250 BC Event, then the 2300 BC Event, and the -13KBP Event. So, one is missing within the time of Leo, Cancer, and Gemini which is approx. 6,000 years of silence. While looking and thinking of that it occurred to me that *maybe* that could explain why Gobekli Tepe was purposefully buried and the reason being that the people were propitiating the God of the -13KBP Event and they got hit again so they revolted against that belief and buried the site cause it obviously didn’t appease.

    When I get more time I would like to dig deeper beyond -13KBP, but online digging without academia credentials into museum artifacts and cave art seems hopeless. “They” say (going by recall) that there was and age of Ice, Wind, Deluge, and ? Starvation… Can’t recall the order either. One clue is there are huge sand dunes up here on top of the gravel and then 10K years of top soil which is only 10-12 inches deep.

  43. There doesn’t seem to be a definitive answer to the order of Aztec ages. The source I used starts out that the first world was destroyed by the Water-Sun and then the Wind-Sun. I must have thought the rest of the story unimportant or too long, I’ll have to look in my notes and dig the book out which isn’t happening any time soon. The other sources say Jaguar (Dragon/Monster), Rain of Fire, Massive Earthquake, and Water. There should be Drought. Steve, don’t you have any cool pictures of the Sun-Stone and Motecuhzomal Stone? I don’t understand why in the digital age we can’t have full access to non-copyrighted images and translations of museum artifacts so we can discuss them freely. It really is a shame that those missionaries burned 99% of those heathen Codexes cause they could have probably explained what happened more clearly than what the old world has.

  44. Bard,
    I might add, the Aztecs area poor source for mythologies. They were California Natives, that only arrived in central mexico 1000 years ago. Their mythology is almost completely lifted from the neighboring Nahua and non nahua speaking people. It mostly goes back to the Olmecs and Teotihuacan people.
    Their creation mythos says that they emerged from the seven sacred caves in the north, after the deluge, to inhabit Aztlan. The literal translation of Aztlan is “the place of Herons”.
    That location has now been pinned down, in the last couple of months, even though the people who published haven’t recognized the importance of their work yet, to the area around the present day salton sea.
    1000 years ago it was a vast fresh water lake that drained into the Colorado river until an earthquake changed the inflow patterns and the lake dried up during the massive drought from the 9th to 13th centuries.
    But, that is not to say that their story has no value to it, the seven sacred caves are in the mountains of Central Cal, I have been to one of the caves. The local Miwok have a tale of the 7 great chiefs who took their bands to seven caves to survive the deluge after the day the earth burned.

  45. Bard: “I lean toward impacts to explain the ice ages. From the verbal record it sure seems that very little is recalled before “Creation” aka the -13KBP Event.”

    I would tend to agree with both those statements. The former is a strong hunch on my part, stemming from the idea that if the YS onset is shown to be an impact, then why the hell wouldn’t we look at the other spikes in the 50,000-12,800 year period as possible impacts, also? Problem #1, of course, is WHERE ARE THE CRATERS?

    At the same time, I am the only person I know who looks at the Greenland ice cores and who thinks we should not read too much into them at ALL. A – Greenland’s weather and climate are not representative of the whole Earth. B – At least for the YD, Greenland is pretty much straight downwind of where the impact is suspected to have hit.

    As to the latter (what happened before the YD impact?), in my journal paper reading regarding the ice ages, including northern Europe, especially, and the one common comment about ice fronts advancing and retreating is this: They cannot find much evidence AT ALL of the preceding ice advances and retreats – because, in their own words, the last ice advance erased the evidence. What does this mean? It means that there really isn’t enough evidence for those earlier ice advances. They are only guessed at or inferred.

    So, just like the question, “What happened before the Big Bang?” no one knows about what happened before the YD. Eventually? Probably, but don’t hold your breath. It won’t be known in our lifetimes. Hell, even with all the forensics on the YD impact, the uniformitarians don’t want to accept THAT one. How would they ever be expected to accept something with much less (and more ambiguous) evidence?

    I’d think one quality of catastrophes on that scale is that they DO tend to “erase” the evidence of what catastrophes might have happened earlier.

  46. Bard –

    I was just reading a Göbekli Tepe paper (http://www.karimsadr.com/resources/Dietrich%20et%20al%202012%20Gobekli.pdf “The role of cult and feasting in the
    emergence of Neolithic communities. New evidence from Göbekli Tepe, south-eastern Turkey”). It mentioned the “intentional burying” of the site.

    I will need to inform myself of it more, but right now I am wondering why EXACTLY Klaus Schmidt came to that conclusion about “intentionally”. I also do not WHEN they assert the burying happened. Though the pillars and walls date back to the earliest period of building there, the site was active for thousands of years. That would put the burial at when? Wiki says “after 8000 BCE” – about 10,000 BP. The earliest seems to have been at around 9600 BCE, about 10,600 – 1,000 years before Solon told Plato that Atlantis had been destroyed. Plato put that destruction at 9,000 years before his time – meaning ~11,400 years BP.

    That 9600 date seems to have been when they smoothed the bedrock, which included the raised bases of the columns IN the bedrock. This tells us WITH CERTAINTY that the high-relief decorated columns were planned right from the very beginning! 1,000 years before Atlantis ended. Is that possible?

    What it DOES tell us is that 1,000 years before that, high cultural development DID exist. This puts to rest 100% the idea that humans did not have such technology as Plato wrote about in that remote time. Thus, the arkies are 100% WRONG, and have been, right from the beginning. If people at ONE end of the Mediterranean had fancy columns and well-designed urban planning, then at the other end of the Med it was also possible.

    Göbekli Tepe puts Atlantis back on the table.

  47. Bard –

    You must be technologically challenged (as in REALLY FREAKING OLD!…LOL). Google “stone of motecuhzoma i” and switch to “IMAGES” view. Lots of photos of that stone.

  48. CevinQ –

    “I might add, the Aztecs area poor source for mythologies. They were California Natives, that only arrived in central mexico 1000 years ago. ”

    The extant story on where the Aztecs came from is that they came from just south of Mazatlán, in the north of the state of Nayarit, from a small village on an island in a lagoon. The place is called Mexcaltitan. Google “mexcaltitan island nayarit mexico”.

    It is certainly on the west coast of N America, but a good 1,000 miles south of California.

    Do you know of a different legend?

    FYI – I visited that island this mast March – with none other than David Hatcher Childress, who invited me along. You can walk across the island in like 3 minutes. What do I think about that legend? I think it is horse feathers. The island isn’t big enough to pee on. And it is 450 miles away. If they came from that place, why isn’t there evidence of them having subjugated people out on the west coast? The curator in nearby San Blas agrees; he told me also thinks that Mexaltitan is not the home of the Aztecs.

    So, if anything, I think California is a more likely birthplace of the Aztecs.

    All in all, though, I think that the Aztecs are a non-entity in history that has been important.

  49. Oh, and BTW, in the book “1491”, Charles C Mann says that what we call the “aztecs” was actually called the Triple Alliance, with a group called the Mexicas being the main power within the alliance.

    From http://www.mexica.net/aztlan.php — Another location of “Aztlan”, the original home of the Aztecs is at San Felipe Aztlan, a bit farther north from Mexcaltitan, still in Nayarit.

    That page talks about them coming from the north, from a place with seven caves. Another researcher (whose name slips my mind) wrote that he thought the place of the seven caves is on the Isle of Pines, an island off the southwestern Cuban coast.

  50. Thanks, CevinQ, the more seven stories the better. Do you recall where you learned that information? I’m always on the look out of more things to read. I’ve been thinking of posting the books that I have read, but haven’t had time to see how much space it would take up yet. Maybe that way someone could suggest some good reads that I have missed.

    Steve – Like I was saying about the mathematician, he really searched for the answer with wobbles and the slight eccentric orbit and more and I just can believe that would induce the mainstream every 40K year ice ages, they have to be caused by impacts in my mind. As to Greenland’s weather not being a representation of the world’s weather, I think the world before the 13KBP Event had very little Meridional Flow and was predominantly Zonal and after the sky cleared the global air patterns changed thus changing the Fertile Crescent into a desert as is repeatedly stated in the ancient text. I’ve always had problems swallowing the movement of ice on flat ground along with miles high of ice where I’m located (Yooper). I grew up around aircraft and a couple of miles up is A LOT OF ICE ! I don’t think it was nearly that thick. Then again “they” are pretty confident that the sea level rose 400′, that is a lot of water that covers 70% of the Earth… I’ll really go out on a limb, has anyone suggested that all five Great Lakes were formed at the same moment? Say if five people with five 12 gauge shot guns were to fire into say two to three inches of ice over a swampy peat ground, I would think there would be some interesting results. I’ll have to read the Gobekli Tepe paper you cite. It is on top of a hill, it must have been buried intentionally. Maybe they thought they angered the Gods. Yeah, they have the dates all different, I think they are talking about 12KBP as the starting point (I’ve been meaning to update my site, the chalk board is updated, but having trouble with lighting and photography.) which makes since cause that would be the time of the sky clearing a thousand years after the Event. No, I want to see the whole of the stones and could use non-copyrighted images, I like the two headed dragon on the Sun-Stone. I had to use a turn of the last century image for the book. Fifty Four and I can get around on a computer well enough.

  51. Bard: “I think the world before the 13KBP Event had very little Meridional Flow”

    Yeah, that is pretty obvious, though the climate guys miss that the entire flow had to be different, because th ice pack was farther south, affecting all sort of slows, to be different than now. What doofuses for not seeing that.

    Eve n NOW, the Atlantic meridional flow is not a CAUSE, but an end effect. They don’t understand that.

    Bard: “…after the sky cleared the global air patterns changed thus changing the Fertile Crescent into a desert as is repeatedly stated in the ancient text.”

    Yes, certainly. And I have been thinking for a long time that that was because the pole moved, from just east of Hudson Bay to its present location. Latitude lines shifted, with the new rotation. I can’t prove any of that quite yet, but I am working on it. The new roation is why the wind patterns changed. IMO.

    Bard: “I’ve always had problems swallowing the movement of ice on flat ground along with miles high of ice where I’m located (Yooper).”

    No shit, Sherlock. I’ve harped on that one a lot here. Ice sheets do NOT move like glaciers. Glaciers are gravity driven mofos. DOWN steep slopes. Take the steep slopes out of it, and ice CAN NOT F-ING MOVE. It will just sit there, forever, or until it freaking melts. You, up in the UP, put some ice down on a flat place somewhere, and see where it goes by springtime. You and I both know it isn’t going to move ANYWHERE. How these ivory tower shlamazels can think ice moves over flat ground I have NO idea. No engineer type would ever accept that idea.

    Bard: “I don’t think it was nearly that thick.”

    So many people believe that it was 2 or 5 miles thick – ALL OVER CANADA. Total CRAP. It was about 2 km thick AT ITS MAXIMUM POINT, which was just to the east of Hudson Bay. It’s thickness diminished the farther it got from that point. In Michigan, where the impact seems to maybe have hit, the ice was certainly less than 1 km, and most likely 300-400 meters thick at the point of impact. WAAAAAY different from what garbage they try to sell.

    That THINNER ice made it possible for the impact to blow away the ice and STILL excavate terra firma and send it to the east coast – and perhaps some also to Australia (per Harris and Davias).

    Bard: “Then again “they” are pretty confident that the sea level rose 400′, that is a lot of water that covers 70% of the Earth…”

    That one I am ambiguous about. The graphs I have found don’t give enough detail. There are so many WAYS that they measure that, and ALL of them are proxies. ALWAYS BE SUSPICIOUS OF CLAIMED PROXIES – Proxies are based on VERY simplistic thinking, and the real world isn’t so simplistic. THE DEVIL IS IN THE DETAILS. And Occam’s Razor is full of s**t.

    Bard: “I’ll have to read the Gobekli Tepe paper you cite. It is on top of a hill, it must have been buried intentionally.”

    I was not saying what I said because I am certain. I said it partially because they f-ing jump to conclusions so much that I have to almost automatically disrespect them – as a first option, first reaction. And also, I haven’t seen ANYTHING that addresses the possibility of a natural burying, even to show why it could not be the case. Any paper that doesn’t consider the OTHER possibilities is a POOR PAPER. And if not intentional, then the next possibility is a natural burying. Also, I know that MANY loess formations ARE on the tops of hills. Witness the Deccan Traps!

    Bard: “Maybe they thought they angered the Gods.”

    It would do you well to get it out of your head that the arkies and their mumbo jumbo projections about cults and religions and ceremonies in the ancient cultures are real. BE SKEPTICAL OF THAT PROJECTION. It had its birth in the times in the 1700s and 1800s when the rich, white European Christians who started archaeology were certain that they were the apex of all human history, and that human history was a SINGLE, ONE-TIME line of ascent, from jungle bunnies to wonderful WHITE MEN, masters of all they surveyed. (The Out-of-Africa meme is a late part of that… AND IS WRONG. Out-of-Africa basically that, “Black men were early and stupid, and – as man got whiter, man got smarter and more superior.” NASTY RACISM, there.)
    Bard: “they are talking about 12KBP as the starting point… which makes since [sic] ’cause that would be the time of the sky clearing a thousand years after the Event.”

    Now that Gobekli Tepe is proven to be OLDER THAN PLATO’S ATLANTIS, all of that single line history is CRAP. And, being crap, all bets are off, as to their interpretation of human history. “We are past the looking glass, people”.

    Hahahaha . . . Yes, and that is hilarious TO ME, because I have SUCH a take on the sky clearing after 1300 years thing, that you won’t believe… Not gonna tell you now, though… LOL

    Bard: “Fifty four”

    NO idea what that means.

    (The interface here sucks sometimes, and I HOPE that this comes out linearly… But I suspect it doesn’t…)

  52. Steve; It sure seems like all the myths, stories, legends etc. wind up happening or ending around YD. As to the glaciers erasing all previous signs of any possible earlier histories, I believe it’s all unfortunately tumbled into the glacial tills and moraines of the ice sheets. BUT, as you have postulated, if the ice doesn’t move then any evidence of man histories is still out there crushed and maybe washed to different locations by melt waters but still out there to be found. Another thought that crossed my early morning pre coffee mind is that “primitive” peoples had no written language. I believe most did but we are not able to see it as writing. In the future so arkie will discover the remains of the library of congress or the Smithsonian and look at all the different writings and languages involved and think: “Why did they save all this cellulose with staining all over it?? It makes no sense.”

  53. I suspect that the Meridional Flow patterns are progressively getting worse and that is why the Northern ice is melting. I bet if somehow a time-lapse movie were made of all the satellite images of weather patterns over the last fifty years that what I say is true. As to people not thinking, I find it hard to believe that so many people flatly discount that man could contribute to global warming when practically everything from coal to oil that we got out of the ground we burned and some at 40K feet. BTW, I noticed a cultural phenomena up here, people save up their broken X-Mas lights and then toss them on camp fires to see the pretty colors and for everyone to breath. When I nicely inquire about the habit they all look at me funny like I’m from a different planet.

    I’ve tried to believe in pole shifts and just can’t, there is just too much mass and inertia for me. I even read half a book on the subject and ended up giving it away.

    I’m with you on some of the things educated people come up with. I just love the one where the Clovis people ate all the large Bison, the mammoths, saber toothed lions (with 20 huge sharp claws and faster and bigger than we are.), and the other 30 different mega fauna. Maybe they all died of obesity or shipped off like in the WALL-E Pixar film where the people are so fat the live on recliners.

    You were implying that I was old and computer challenged that I couldn’t find images of the Sun Stone and others. I’m fifty four years old and can get around well enough in the net.

  54. Bard; You mentioned about wishing to have a library of catastrophist related reading. You’re in the right place! At the top right of the opening page in Bold print it says Key posts and pages. Second item in that list is a catastrophists bibliography. It has a lot of articles and papers on that subject. Mr. Thompson did a great job compiling all this info. Hopefully you find what you need there. You also might see if Mr. Thompson would let you add some of your work to the list for all to use.

  55. Bard,
    I read about the seven miwok chiefs in a very old book on Yosemite lore, that used to be online, but sadly is no longer.
    A friend of mine might have saved it, I’ll ask him.
    For the best online collection of California mythologies,
    Native American mythos in general
    http://www.sacred-texts.com/nam/index.htm

    And California

    http://www.sacred-texts.com/nam/ca/index.htm

    Here is an interesting story from the Bodega Bay band of northern Miwok.
    Bodega Bay is 120 miles north of San Francisco.

    “HOW CHA’-KA THE TULE-WREN SHOT OUT THE SUN

    A TALE OF THE OLAMENTKO INDIANS OF BODEGA BAY

    PERSONAGES

    O’-ye the Coyote-man

    Chā’-kā the Tule-wren, a poor orphan boy

    Koo-loo’-pe the Humming-bird

    HOW CHA’-KA THE TULE-WREN SHOT OUT THE SUN

    CHA’-KA the Tule-wren was a poor worthless boy. He had no father and no mother and went from house to house begging, and the people gave him food to eat. Nobody liked him, and finally they tired of feeding him. One day he told them that if they did not give him food he would shoot out the Sun. Then everybody laughed. Again he said he surely would shoot it out. They said, “Go ahead and shoot.”

    So he did; he sent his arrow right up into the Sun and let the light out and the whole world became dark. There was no Sun, no Moon, no Stars, no Fire-everything was dark. It was dark for years and years and the people could not see to find food, and everybody was starving.

    All this time O’-ye the Coyote-man was thinking how he could get the Sun and light back again. At length he saw just a little light a long way off. He sent Koo-loo’-pe the Humming-bird to steal it.

    Koo-loo’-pe set out on the long journey and finally came to the fire and stole a little piece and brought it back under his chin–you can see the blaze there to this day.
    When he was bringing it somebody chased him, but he was so small and flew so swiftly they could not see which way he went and could not catch him. So he escaped with the fire and brought it back to O’-ye the Coyote-man, and the people had light again.”

    The loss of the sun and darkness and cold is a very common theme among Californai mythos.

    There are parallel stories in many cultures around the world.

    Bard, are aware of B. Masse and B. Masse’ work on impact and ultra plinian erutions and mythologies of South American peoples?

    Here is link to my dropbox folder, there are two papers by masse, and a paper on indigenous Australian mythologies concerning impacts.

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8ewhr2w3syoacub/AAD3fNuym1cJ2cfg185DEsd4a?dl=0

  56. Jim – Thanks, but I’ve tried to go through that list and can’t seem to find a quick way to distinguish between papers and books. Great list, but I want only books. Not that I don’t read some of the papers. Here is a list that I’ve read that are most relevant to this group.

    Comet / Asteroid Impacts and Human Society : An Interdisciplinary Approach by Peter T. Bobrowski and Hans Rickman 2007
    Exodus to Arthur by Mike Baillie 2003
    New Light on the Black Death by Mike Baillie 2006
    The Cycle of Cosmic Catastrophes : Flood, Fire, Famine in the History of Civilization by Richard Firestone, Allen West, and Simon Warwick-Smith 2006
    Man and Impact in the Americas by E. P. Grondine 2005
    Hamlets Mill by De Santillaca 1969
    The Cosmic Serpent by Victor Clube and Bill Napier 1982
    The Cosmic Winter by Victor Clube and Bill Napier 1990
    Comets and the Origin of Life by Janaki and Chandra Wickramasinghe and William Napier 2010
    The Celtic Gods : Comets in Irish Mythology by Mike Baillie and Patrick McCafferty 2005
    Myth and Geology by L. Piccardi and W. B. Masse 2007
    Rain of Fire and Ice by John Lewis 1996
    The 2300 B.C. Event Vols. 1, 2, & 3 by M. M. Mandeckehr 2006
    Worlds in Collision by Immanuel Velikousky 1950
    Ragnarok : The Age of Fire and Gravel by Ignatius Donnelly 1882
    Atlantis the Antediluvian World by Ignatius Donnelly 1882
    The Comets of God New Scientific Evidence for God Recent Archeological, Geological and Astronomical Discoveries that Shine New Light on the Bible and Its Prophecies by Jeffrey Goodman 2011
    Comets, Their Origin, Nature, and History by H. W. Elson 1910
    The Mystery of Comets by Fred L. Whipple 1985
    Between the Planets by Fletcher G. Watson 1941
    Comet by Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan 1985

    The others are Myth, Pyramids, and scholarly cuneiform/hieroglyph religious books, plus… Mostly from the turn of the century before last.

  57. I toured eastern Washington last summer having a grand vacation following the path of the Missoula Floods downriver, checking out the Scablands, loess hills, etc. Geololgists there have stated that they can see patterns of the same sorts of floods from prior ice sheets, not merely the most recent one. Their ability to differentiate between the last series of Missoula Floods and prior ones seems to peter out approximately 100,000 years ago.

  58. Bard: “I’ve tried to believe in pole shifts and just can’t, there is just too much mass and inertia for me.”

    Yeah, I am not trying to convince anyone of pole movements. I am mostly thinking out lloud here and hoping sometimes to get some feedback.

    But one of the things I DO point out sometimes is that large earthquakes are almost always touted as “slowing down the rotation of the Earth”. In order to slow or accelerate the Earth’s rotation – the whole thing, it seems – some lateral force must be applied. In a pole movement the old pole position must move southward along SOME meridian. (At the North pole ALL directions are south.) I don’t see why a southward pole movement is any different than a slowing or accelerating of the rotation; it is only in a different direction. I don’t see why the direction should make a difference. I just think that if earthquakes that are INTERNAL to the system – due to slippage on some fault lines – can somehow move the system they are inside of, then something from outside should also be able to move. In fact, I’d think an external force should be more likely, if the two forces are equal in magnitude. An internal force has to deal with equal and opposite force WITHIN the system, meaning that for every eastward force there must be a westward force. This is not true of an external force.

    Once the principle might be accepted, then it is only a matter of sizing up the force to see what force could move either the entire Earth or the lithosphere down to some shear plane. Of course, the mass of just the lithosphere is much smaller than that of the entire Earth. The shallower the shear plane, the less mass that needs to be moved.

    Certainly the mass is not the only factor. Friction is also present. And the Rheology of the plastic materials must also be taken into account.

    [Wiki] Rheology is the study of the flow of matter, primarily in a liquid state, but also as ‘soft solids’ or solids under conditions in which they respond with plastic flow rather than deforming elastically in response to an applied force.

    In spite of much research over many years, there is still a LOT that is not known about what is going on under our feet. So far, I am quite disappointed in the amount of solid knowledge about the mantle-lithosphere interface. Our “eyes” down there are still antiquated (IMO) methods that entail a WHOLE LOT of interpretation of just what readings mean.

    So far, I am thinking that the crust itself cannot move BY ITSELF. It is too thin and too flimsy. For it to move, it would simply crush itself against itself, folding and breaking. That is my take on that at this moment (meaning I expect my understanding to change).

    More likely is Han Kloosterman’s thinking that the crust must be carried by the lithosphere – that the shear plane will be down nearer the mantle. I resisted that, because it DOES mean moving more mass – and the mass is damned big enough already, even if it is only the crust. The rheology down deeper is better suited for slippage – though there is nothing simple or easy about figuring out how that can happen.

    Right now that is all a mental exercise, and no more. But I can see potential for slippage. And a good part of that possibility is just up-sizing the earthquake energy with a large enough impactor.

    One way I like to put it is like this sequence of questions:

    Q: If a PLANET, say, the size of Venus, hit the Earth, do you think it might make the Earth bump sideways?

    Q: If that planet hit it at a glancing blow, would it possibly make the Earth turn a bit? Maybe a LOT?

    Q: If we could shrink that planet to any size we want, for an experiment, do you think that there is a MINIMUM size for a planet for bumping or rotating the EARTH?

    Q: Would you agree that a very small planet or moon or asteroid might be TOO SMALL to affect the Earth in terms of rotating or bumping it?

    Q: Do you agree that a planet moving faster would be more likely to affect the Earth’s rotation (in some direction) than a same-size planet traveling slower?

    Q: Do you yourself have an idea of how BIG a planet would have to be to affect the Earth’s rotation? Would, for example, the asteroid Vesta be able to bump or rotate the Earth? In your opinion? As a guess?

    These are hoped to elicit an opinion that, “YES, something big enough CAN affect the Earth’s rotation in some direction or other.” THEN they can see that it isn’t THAT this might happen, it is just that they think minor bodies are too small or too slow. They will focus on the “too big” side of it, but that is okay. I think that once they answer yes to enough of those questions, we’ve got them where we want them – thinking that it is at least CONCEIVABLE – and that the real question is not IF, but HOW SMALL OR HOW BIG?.

    Until they get to that point, getting them to consider MORE about this is impossible. But if they DO get to that point, then THEY become part of the effort to figure it out.

    OBVIOUSLY a VERY LARGE planet can move the Earth or make its surface rotate. How deep the movement might go is another question. If Jupiter hit the Earth, the Earth would be TOAST. If Venus hit the Earth, the results would be catastrophic. If Mars hit the Earth, almost certainly it is big enough to cause a catastrophe. (…in the gray area now…) If Mercury hit the Earth, yes or no?

    Somewhere in there people will begin to say, “No. That body is too small.” Not everyone would choose the same dividing line. But if we continue to go with smaller and smaller bodies, eventually everyone will agree that THAT newly considered size is too small.

    To me, this is simply a problem/puzzle of picking out the right size ENGINE or MOTOR, with enough horsepower or torque. Apply enough torque, and the problem isn’t a puzzle anymore. It becomes simply an engineering problem of choosing the right motor for the job – i.e., the right sized body and the right speed.

    We ALL already KNOW that a big planet can do it – EVEN if we talk about rotating the whole SOLID body of the Earth. But can a comet? An asteroid? A small planet? And HOW small? And HOW slow?

    And when we ask them to NOT move or rotate the entire globe, but only the crust or lithosphere, obviously it would take less impact, less size, less speed.

    The real question, though, is: DID it actually happen?

    You think not. I think it is a tough sell, but that it MAY be possible. May have BEEN possible.

  59. Steve – That was really good, you have obviously thought about it for some time. First thing that comes to mind is the most recent theory of the origin of the Moon, that would definitely change about every part of what the Earth was before. If one was to touch a spinning bowling ball as if it were a top on a point, yes it would change.
    Then I started getting into where the standard of “axis” would lie? With Plate Tectonics the point of reference would change and then the stars move in all kinds of directions and all confusion results. You’ve almost made a believer of me, but then again Dinosaurs and Pangaea are interesting and not all that relevant in my mind. I just don’t think the axis would move much at all for an impact that left us bipedal mammals alive.

  60. Bard – For right now, PLEASE – Don’t get me started on things forming in the solar system. I don’t have the energy. I covered that a LOT maybe 18-5 months ago (maybe starting with Chelyabinsk, which was my seed for that).

    Yes, I’ve put a LOT of thought into these things. Since the 1960s, in fact. But thanks to George here, much more in the last few years.

    But as far as axis stuff, yeah, a good subject. For example, ask yourself why after 4.6 billion years the Earth still would have a wobble – or have a magnetic pole that wanders all over. The uniformies all have their intra-planet memes about why those still exist, but don’t accept those just on their authority. If 4.6 billion years (1/3 the life of the UNIVERSE!) isn’t enough time, WTF is with THAT???

    Yeah, the stars moving all over. That’s a good part of it – and that DOES come from ancient accounts. WHY would any ancient culture make such a thing up? According to the arkies and astronomers, they wouldn’t even have f-ing know what such statements implied. In Ed Grondine’s book, one chapter is about the Mayas and a passage in the Chalam Balaam talks about the Milky Way “rising up”. If one chooses tone’s words of translation slightly different than the way the translators did, the meaning gets REALLY interesting. All sorts of mayhem and MANY deaths, and a mega-flood from the ocean (which one?), all the way into the central Yucatán region known as the Petén. Many, many deaths, and still the Mayan arkies (gringo ones for sure) for DECADES have wondered where all the people in the Mayan cities went to.

    SO MANY CLUES. So many that the arkies blow off. (Then we get to have THEM do the translations, too – aye, there’s a sure place to insert their modern beliefs and then be able to claim that it was the beliefs of the ancient peoples.)

    All one has to do is to accept the POSSIBILITY that catastrophes might have happened, and almost ALL of it then takes on a completely different coloring.

    Pangaea – you are correct. It isn’t directly relevant.

    Your last sentence. . .

    FYI, Clovis went extinct at the YD, in case you had maybe missed that. (The arkies always seem to.) And it took pretty much the entire Younger Dryas cold period for there to be humans in NA, based on the evidence at some of the YD impact sites. It IS possible for a big impact to affect SOME of the Earth and not all of it. (But the YD SEEMS to have wasted all the mammoths in Siberia, too – not just the ones in NA.)

  61. Steve – It had crossed my mind when I thought up of the idea of using the Moon formation as an example, the little voice kept telling me “Don’t use that, accretion is involved, you’ll get Steve going again!” Yes, it seems a bit strange that the Earth is the only inner planet with a huge magnetic field. I had looked into the characteristics of the inner planets searching for the slightest clue into the unknown gravity question and then got lost in the bending of light and the seemingly instantaneousness of it and the speed of light being a boundary. Your on a monumental quest trying to figure out axial shifts of the Earth alright. The list of factors involved alone gives me a headache. Like, the inner crust must be bumpy which would really mess with the Reynolds Numbers of the unknown magma attune with tossing handfuls of ball bearings into spur gears. What you need is a bored gifted mathematician friend to even come up with a rough guess.

    Don’t you know of anyone from the continent USA that is scheduled for a visit? I could send them my book and they can hand it to you. If you liked his book you’ll love mine, it is packed full of stories like you mention. I don’t recall that part of the book, tell me more about the ‘Milky Way “rising up”‘, I’m not following you on that part. The ancient stories are riddled with phenomena in the sky and even *they* put together the causation and effect. They knew exactly where is came from, where it went, and the 3.3 year orbit.

    Yeah, I know, basically everything was killed in North America. The most plausible reason the survivors made it was they were small enough to get by on less food or smart enough to move South. I am constantly baffled by academia, the schooling must strip them of common sense and creativity or instill a concerted plan of misdirection. Like the newest post about the Bays… I say fish fins, at least the fish have brains unlike Hydrogen and maybe ESP to communicate with the fish in the other ponds to shape them into parabolas and orientate them to look like they originated from the Great Lakes.

  62. To asteroid impacts and Holocene human society, see
    http://www.knowledgeminer.eu/climate_papers.html
    At present, 8500 BC until 3000 BC is analyzed in detail, which each cosmic meteor impact event given (in 3 papers, part 1 – 3) Until the years end, part for for 3000 BC to 1 AD will be published on this site. No other literature is more comprehenve and detailed on the subject. JS.

  63. Joachim,

    Thanks for posting the link to those papers, fantastic work.

    There is work from the population genetics field that shows 13 of 17 sampled populations have minimum effective populations between 4.2 and 2.1 KYA.

    “The plots are consistent with patterns seen in the relative numbers of singletons, described above, in that the Saami and Palestinians show markedly different demographic histories compared with the rest, featuring very recent reductions, while the Turks and Greeks show evidence of general expansion, with increased growth rate around 14 KYA. A different pattern is seen in the remaining majority (13/17) of populations, which share remarkably similar histories featuring a minimum effective population size ~2.1–4.2 KYA (considering the 95% confidence intervals (CIs) reported in Supplementary Table 4), followed by expansion to the present.”

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2015/05/more-y-chromosome-super-fathers.html

  64. Steve; I read somewhere that earth’s magnetic field is the result of the molten iron core and that the magnetic field holds the atmosphere in place. Mars Venus Mercury all have cooled to point their cores have solidified and their magnetic fields collapsed (Evaporated?)allowing their atmospheres to go off into space for the most part. I’m sure that in a couple of billion yrs. the earth will be a colder rock in space and we all will have gone somewhere else warmer for the duration. I would have to guess the crust down to the liquid core would be capable of moving under the right conditions and may still be moving today causing the magnetic pole to move. Inconsistencies in the thickness of the liquid core may also be responsible for the wobble. I would think that a direct hit would cause the crust in indent and expand outwards similar to stepping on a rubber ball. And conversely if the impact was a glancing blow I can see a wave effect (earthquake?) causing the crust to shear similar to one pulling a blister on their hands with magma being the fluid that fills the voids versus bodily serum in the blister. This doesn’t sound complete but that’s all I have for now.

  65. Jim,
    If an object hits the earth in a more or less vertical way, like most impacts, what happens depends on if it hits a continent or if it hits the ocean.

    If it hits on a continent, nearly all of the energy is reflected back towards space, in the form of ejecta, while if it hits oceanic crust the earth absorbs nearly all of the energy. And that energy is reflected around the core and refocused at an antipode, and will set a mantle plume in motion, thus causing a large igneous province eruption.
    The Deccan traps are the refocused energy from the Chixilub impact, and the Siberian traps are the antipodal hot spot from the impact that caused the Permian- Triassic event, which was a deep oceanic impact, as the crater has been long ago subducted.

  66. Steve, your message dated 21 oct. 2015:

    “H.K. thinking that the shearplane will be down nearer the mantle”

    I never thought or said anything of the kind.

    Very obviously (to me) it is the interface between Mantle and liquid core, the uppermost LIQUID layer of that liquid core.
    And it is not MY idea, but Ting Ying Ma’s (adulterated by Hapgood) and Flodmark’s.

    To get Flodmark’s paper I went to Sweden, spent 2 weeks searching, and found it on my 14th day there, in the U. Library of Stockholm.

  67. Hi,
    I’m new here and my main concern is the Carolina Bays impact. Searching for other causes one should first ask and then follow Ockham.
    [you should read Carl Sagan’s book Dragon in my garage]
    An impact on a massive plate will cause less damage (Manicougan Crater)than an impact on or next to the Mid Atlantic Ridge – a worldwide catastrophe must follow.
    Let me talk wildly about the CBs bolide.
    Let’s assume it was about 10 km diameter and on it’s five minutes way from Alaska to Carolina it splitted in two bigger parts and one smaller part. This part exploded somewhere above the fall-line and the fragments formed the CBs, some more small impact craters you can find about 150 km S and SE of Charleston (-400m) and (so I think) some bigger “craters” at 31°27’N 73°1’W(-5.300m)
    The two remaining touched down next (600km NE) to the Nares Abyssal Plain north of Puerto Rico. If so, both went through the here thin crust and opened the Mid Atlantic Ridge like a zipper. It was opened to the North as far as Island and far to the South. An about 15.000 km long chain of volcanoes formed within a few days and this was the begin of a rainy, dark and cold era all over the world.
    Side-effects:
    Global: The impulse of the impact make the earth tumbling (precession)-still visible today. Cold air from the polar region freeze moderate regions within hours (Mammouths ?)
    Local (SC and NC): Why there are earth-quakes in Carolina? Far and wide no plate-boundary to explain. After forming the CBs the meteorites run through and exploded in the bedrock forming bigger or smaller caves. Collapsing caves cause earthquakes. [source: http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/states/south_carolina/seismicity.php for maps see http://earthquake.usgs.gov/hazards/products/conterminous/2014/HazardMap2014_lg.jpg%5D

    There are more related subjects to discuss about:
    Was this impact the Dryas-Boundary-Event? I believe so.
    Was the Hudson Canyon (the Congo too) formed after this impact?
    How changed the coastline? A tsunami after the impact would have submerged the today-Carolina and wiped out the CBs. Therefor the East Coast must have subsided (for 250m ?) since the impact.
    Same for Florida. So one can find pollen in Florida and conclude: No tsunami – no impact.
    What about the ice-shield? I think it was build within a very short time (weeks ?)

    So – let’s call it a day.

    Konrad