Cintos –

My 0.324 cents worth:

As I understand it, sand is usually formed on beaches and riverine formations, one little accumulation at a time. That is the uniformitarian POV.

IMHO, one thing must be true: All of that 40+ feet of sand was not formed at that location. If this understanding of mine is true, then somehow the sand got transported and deposited from some previous deposit(s). That suggests something toward the non-uniformitarian school of thought – i.e., a tsunami or something relatively equivalent.

It might be informative to see what the recent tsunamis have done in terms of moving sand deposits around and depositing them. I know that a large area of downtown Banda Aceh in 2004 was scoured almost clean, with sand left where buildings and trees used to be. This was VERY impressive for me. Certainly, any sand present on beaches will be “slurried” into the water flow and won’t settle out until the turbulence dies down.

Intuitively, I would tend to think that deep sand deposits and loess have similar genesises. Also that the built up (down?) deposits are similar to glacial till and the deep gravel deposits in the northern U.S. Midwest. Similar does not mean identical, though.

What Ice Agers see as moraines from mountainous ice caps over Canada and the north central U.S. I see as mega-tsunami deposits. After all, there are no such gravel deposits/moraines in northern Siberia, which supposedly was victim of the same Ice Age.

The bottom line is this:

You asked a very good question, one the uniformitarians have a pat answer for – and an answer I don’t agree with.

Also – it is pretty certain that tree ring studies on the paleo-climate are not bring done, including gaining data on long term regular patterns of solar variability.

In the extreme north west corner of Washington County Alabama a friend of mine told me that they found a pine stump about 30 feet underground while excavating to build a pond dam on his property. The land is very sandy all through western Washington County. I don’t know the exact location , but is is near the Aquilla community.. On my family’s property farther south and west of Vinegar Bend , My brother was drilling a well for his camp and discovered wood charcoal 18 ft underground. About 600 ft south of there I uncovered a flint indian arrow head about four ft underground while digging a hole in an old field. I found no other artifacts there. No pieces of flint , pottery , charcoal,bones or any other signs of early life. There were no rocks or clay only very sandy soil and one arrowhead. The lay of the land is a gentle slope, Not enough for weather to erode the field. It may drop 10 feet over a distance of 600 feet. I tell you this because it raises a question in my mind of when the sand was deposited and could human life existed when it happened ?

About that downed forest….

Whenever the CBays were deposited (probably 100+ka before YDB if Michael Davias’ latest CBay age bracketing evidence is correct), it has already been acknowledged to lay over several different Geologic formations and was likely from a single emplacement event (Douglas Johnson?, 1942, http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ocb/ or http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/cbaymenu.html). The monolithic blanket of sand in which the CBays exist shows several distinctive features that clearly indicate possible descent from exoatmospheric sub-orbital trajectory as distal ejecta from a large cosmic impact.

This is hard to interpret for anyone accustomed to terrestrial scale Geologic process. Its hard for most folks period. It involves thousands of cubic kilometers (km^3 * 1000+) of superheated ejecta from a cratering process being launched out of a deep crater (most of which was Ice Sheet and some of which was sand stone under that ice sheet) into an astronomically large hydrothermal explosion, being accelerated both vertically and horizontally to several km/sec as well as thermally energized by those two effects, drifting suborbitally as a giant cloud-sheet until reentry half a continent away, reentering the atmosphere in a frictional heating deceleration which transfers that thermal and kinetic energy into the atmosphere over the duration of the ejecta sheet reentering process, and during the upper atmospheric descent, changing the atmospheric conditions as a result on a subcontinental scale while the ejecta’s kinetic and heat is dumped into that airmass, the falling ejecta then freezing very cold during stratospheric descent before running into thicker air of the lower atmosphere and slowing down while more sand piles up on its back in the air column superhighway, encountering moisture in the troposphere and collecting that moisture through surface condensation while further slowing from the essentially static momentum of that accumulated moisture (which then further compounds the vertical chain reaction pile up effect), becoming cohesive as an overall blanket during terminal descent due to that accumulated (continental airmass) moisture, trapping voids or bubbles (entrainment) due to energization of the cohesive blanket in its epic battle against the trapped subcontinental air mass beneath it during that cohesive terminal descent, and finally reaching the surface where it changes from descent at an angle to horizontal, stretching all of the bubble voids by essentially the same trig function before they burst upon the cohesive blanket’s landing, forming bay rims in the bursting process.

Physical mechanics. Multi disciplinary. Breath slow and deep….

Clearly, the variation of CBay size may be a direct result of void coalescence during the tropospheric (lower) descent phase of the moistened and cohesive falling sand and is precisely log normal in distribution, as are many observable, naturally occurring distributions, including bubble coalescence phenomenon. Coincidence? Not likely. Here is the main reason: The CBay, over ten thousand of them, have major axes which all point toward the same central location (suggested primary impact site), but ONLY when those axial vectors are adjusted for the spin of the Earth during the ejecta flight time. The odds of that happening by chance for over ten thousand (10,000) individual, independently formed CBays are vanishingly small, EVEN if they were all formed by a similar wind pattern over much of the latitude of our present nation, which by itself is a pretty unlikely idea if you study wind and weather.

Coincidently, if you burst a bubble on a flat surface, the material in the bubble wall is deposited into the same distribution as the rim structures of the CBays.

Coincidently, if a bubble blanket is laid down at some angle to the horizontal, all of the voids will have the same elongated aspect ratio as a function of the lay-down angle,

and

Coincidently, all of the voids will all also tend to share the same heavier rim structures in the more distal direction from the original impact, because the more distal ejecta comes down first since laying down the blanket at some angle to the horizontal, from distal toward proximal w.r.t. that original impact site, causes material in the blanket to slosh in that downward sloping direction when the cohesive blanket is decelerated vertically from terminal descent at a some angle off horizontal upon reaching the surface.

Continuing….

There is a large trench missing out of Michigan, where coincidently the Glaciologists can’t find Glacier retreat evidence for the Saginaw lobe of the ice sheet, and further coincidently there is Helium 3 isotope at unusually high levels in that saginaw trench, along with megafractured subsurface layers and other features common to impact sites.

That’s a lot of coincidences: Log normal size distribution of a large population of similar features in the imprint, all axes pointed to one focus region but ONLY when accounting for Earths rotation during time of flight of distal ejecta, CBay rim structures matching flat surface scaled up bubble burst results both in aspect ratio and in rim thickening on the down-slope side of the descending blanket, multiple different impact-type phenomenon under Saginaw, and all of these things before even considering the monotonous uniformity and (extremely) remarkable lack of any or all terrigenous detritus deep within the bulk of the sand itself, which not only is in total contradiction to any wind/water-based model of formation for the CBays (No leaves. No dirt. No branches. No fossils. So seashells. No fish. No spent water bottles. Just pure quartz sand.) but is all completely and very neatly explained by the aerial delivery model for that sand. Coincidence?

Saginaw has an exposed layer of sandstone around the edges of that valley, and if the formation epoch is as now identified by Mr. Davias and his tireless effort on this task, some two miles of ice sheet depth may have been present in that area at during that epoch. That’s a two mile thick sheet of reactive armor available to transform or absorb much of the cratering energy of a rather large cosmic impact, to possibly leave relatively little impact scarring compared to the possible size/speed/energy of the impactor. This is of course if you consider the Saginaw valley, about 150 km by 350 km, as a relatively small crater. Interestingly, the impact may have been at a shallow angle. The truth is probably more like “we are completely unsure” due to the unknowns of that much ice being in the picture.

Clearly, some closer looks are necessary, on all of these fronts of research.

Missing Crater?

That much ice could amplify the impact shock effects upon solid surface beneath it for a steep angle impact. It could also greatly reduce the impact shock effects upon solid surface beneath it for a shallow angle impact. The most amazing thing about this part of the story is that no one is sure, because ice impacts are just coming into the arena of scientific estimation for normal (steep) angles, and the shallow angle impact case has been largely neglected in the development of modern cosmic impact cratering science! That I find particularly surprising, and is likely due to the fact that the NASA hypervelocity gun facility used to experiment in this realm doesn’t do shallow angle, so no one bothers to do numeric or analytical modeling where there is no experimental results available for comparison or contrast. But recent hydrocode modeling suggests that a shallow angle shot could definitely hold the key to minimal impact scarring, since its the vertical component of the projectile’s kinetic energy that is absorbed in the shallow angle hit, not total kinetic from 1/2*m*v^2 that we are taught in traditional high school physics.

This is a classic multi-variant, multi-disciplinary type of problem that is conceptually very tough to get one’s mind entirely around. Typically not solvable using the sole resources of any single scientific discipline, so no wonder it hasn’t been solved yet. The markings are clearly emplaced in the imprint, however, so it will all come to light eventually when the proper breed of multi-disciplinary scientist takes a detailed, open minded look at the entire picture. The GeoSpace scientist.

A key area of evidence will be the nature of the horizon below the sand. If it was emplaced in a single event or process, there should be evidence beneath the sand about what happened to put the sand there. About the emplacement process. If there were forests and other surface features that were suddenly and mercilessly blanketed by billions or trillions of tons of high density, very pure quartz sand, thats going to leave signatures about the delivery process. A felled forest of preserved trees is exactly the kind of signature we would expect. Clearly. Imagine the worst blizzard and the worst ice storm you can. Now combine those two types of storms, and things start getting ugly. Then multiply by 50 or 500 or 5000 for a feeling of the weight of 2 to 5 meters of high density pure quartz sand (yep, very ugly indeed). Then compress the duration of the ‘storm’ to a matter of mere minutes. Ouch.

Too ugly to imagine? Maybe.

Evidence? Yes, there should be plenty of evidence. That buried surface is going to show evidence of being blasted by gail force winds, crushed by a giant’s foot (the size of 5% of the surface of the continental U.S. and weighs as much as Rhode Island) and then sprayed up through the voids as they burst open and spread the sand out to form void rims. The highly compressed air underneath may have become heated from rapid pressure rise due to the astronomical weight of material in the air column reaching the surface, but not for long, as it would be quickly jetted out through every opening upon contact of that heavy blanket with the surface. Try to imagine it. Then imagine the evidence. From that open-minded conceptual exercise, imagery of flattened forests begin to materialize as a very basic, simple and highly anticipated result. Ugly monster storm. Astronomical energies. Use your imagination.

TH

OOps he said 12000 years old..

so then the next logical questions which are not being asked are

if a large hurricane can destroy or is destroying all those trees in deep water why did they make it until today? as surely even smaller hurricanes would have destroyed them if the water was ever even shallower right ?

and thus how did they get buried in the first place if a hurricane unburied them ?

The burry, and submerge,them only required a catastrophic flood event perhaps more than one)at the end of the last Ice Age, followed by rising sea levels in the millenniums since.

The amount of time they stayed buried through countless storms since that time can be seen as hint of just how deeply they may have been buried in the first place.

(you and they can(NOT!) prove what it would even take for 40 feet of sand to move or bury something from anything remotely common. .

what part do you not get ? that no one has to subject themselves to your religion and boundries of your religion !! all it’s rules spoken and unspoken laws .. based on limited knowledge and agreed upon ignorance! only you do because it is your belief system .i”m not going to subject myself to that stupidity!
on the other hand no one has to subject their minds to the limits of eye witnessed veiws of history except those who believe the eye witnesses version of history . and if you think I am doing any of this for any of you !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQZmCJUSC6g

I think that is pot calling the kettle black ?
nope I won’t submit my beliefs to your religion and it’s stolen authority!

case and point!
from archeaologica.org ( or something like that )

E.P. Grondine wrote:
shawomet wrote:

I am not really qualified to judge the merits of the case for ancient dates, but this is certainly an interesting study of how orthodox scientists react to and treat researchers who present evidence that screams “impossible!!”.

I certainly agree that you are not qualified, and not only in the judgement of the merits of ancient dates.

You are simlarly ignorant of cult archaeology, and how those con men work.

Its based on the suspension of judgement, which is something you are demonstrating, either as a victim or con man.

You have continually made false equivalencies since you first showed up here.

By focusing on process, you are trying to engage in “special pleading” of your case.

That is something that I do not do.

There is a big difference between physics and meta-physics, and paradigm shift is something that you also clearly do not understand or qualified in.”

when Mr Ed and Ilk like him use words like “cult archeology and con men” and in the same sentence , dude it is a religion!! and only one bad choice from some damn fearful fool with a christ complex before you all are burning “witches” !

BTW, as regards the bald cypresses themselves, there may be some parallel that can be drawn from the mammoth tusks of Richard Firestone.

If the cypresses had been on target ground of a hyper-velocity vent, they would exist anymore. That is clear.

But if they were knocked down and covered up by a single deposition non-hyper-velocity event like the blast wave from Tunguska knocking down those many trees on the taiga, then there may be some microscopic evidence on the surface of those trees – evidence of quartz sand scarring for example. It is obvious that if the sand came in with enough energy to knock the trees down, then I’d think two things should be apparent:

1.) Scarring from the force of the sand particles. Whether this scarring could have survived the event and the subsequent millennia, I don’t know. But it is sopmething to look for. Just as Firestone looked for and found the iron balls in the mammoth tusks. The scarring would NOT necessarily be on one side only, since the tree might have rotated once uprooted. But I think the side first impacted would generally have deeper and more scarring.

2.) The quartz sand would be all around and even under the felled cypresses. The event – if true – would have been like a flood. The blanket would not have only come DOWN, but also after impact would have ejected for some distance and in doing so would have been something like a tsunami.

3.) The quartz sand particles would have been traveling faster than the uprooted cypresses would have been traveling before landing. So they would have blown past the cypresses and been able to form somewhat of a blanket on the ground before the cypresses were able to land. Unlike water, when the cypress fell on the sand, the sand would not all be squeezed out from under the trunk. One would expect the trees to be near – but not often ON the bottom of the sand layer.

George and Steve; Sorry if I stirred up a bit with the chicken, wasn’t looking for a fight just asking some questions that come to mind when I’m reading your various posts. This whole concept is fascinating. If I’m causing problems let me know and I’ll just watch. Thanks for the info and concepts, Jim C

Herman, your mesage from November 2012:
The provenance of sand is not determined by geochemical analysis, but by heavy-mineral analysis. Separate the minerals heavier than quartz, and have a look at them through a polarisation microscope. Any geologist who has done the basic course in thin-section microscopy can change over in not too long a time to the microscopy of grains.

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