This all is the way science is done – the nitty gritty papers that support or conflict with predictive concepts like the Firestone et al team came up with. Do the little things, the detailed studies support it or do they undercut it? If the big picture idea doesn’t hold water, it will begin show up in papers done at this level.
That this and the Greenland black mat and various other studies seem to add weight to the Y-D impact theory, they begin to outweigh the Holliday and Pinter sloppy hatchet jobs. This is as it should be. The old guard will always be able to drag out bits of their memes and piece together something arguing that the existing theories don’t need no stinkin’ changes. New studies are tending more and more to mention Firestone. This lends credence to Firestone’s ideas, as they wouldn’t mention it if they didn’t in the future want to be seen as having been open to it – but only if they think it has merit. Ergo, they DO think it has merit.
That doesn’t mean it is RIGHT. But it does mean it makes some sense, and Firestone will be the first to tell everyone that it isn’t a finished product.
With so many sites producing evidence, but no single clear event or ground zero found yet, it is this level of evidence that will allow Firestone or someone else to fit the pieces together. Without enough pieces it is gobbledgook. So finding more pieces is a GOOD thing.
I am excited that these pieces are turning up. Effort is being made on just this time period. Focus on this is excellent. It means that others want to be part of the unraveling.
Firestone has most everything he found being replicated by others – surely a sign he was on the right trail. No, the smoking gun hasn’t been found yet. With the possible variations of impact at the time ice sheets and ocean covered the world, the evidence will not conform to the prior concept of meteor impacts. That it almost certainly was a comet means people have to collect evidence of cometary impacts, which are different from meteors, but also different from each other. So, dozens or scores of types of cometary impacts may need to be sorted out and identified before someone can connect the dots on the Y-D impactor. In the absence of a clearly identified type, Firestone is a sitting duck. Yet at the same time, people are slowly coming out of the woodwork to support his basic premise.
Does this study prove anything? Not by itself. Circumstantially, it adds weight for SOMETHING having happened.
Everyone gets to get in on the sleuthing, and that makes it not only interesting, but also more fun than science usually is.
well it’s size would just about covers the whole of North America ! especially from mountain range to mountain range.
then any kindergartner study could be done, and by cut and paste, paying special attention to watching the movement of Caribbean islands and how north america pulled away from South America around those islands , what is now called the canary islands . well It seems pretty sure it hit north america and not South America .
you can also go to the tip of south america and see the whole movement in a sediment trail.
well that sure would explain some of the things which are past down from around the world. and why some tribes are sure they have pieces of the moon.. but of course that would be just one such eye witnessed event science has never even tried to explain.
Steve, its called a “hypothesis”, and in this case what it does is try to explain the existing data. That hypothesis will also predict other data, such as the simultaneous loss of human life.
Firestone has a separate hypothesis as to cometary injection mechanisms, and it is important not to confuse the two hypothesis.
Hermann, in as much as the Carolina Bays were being exploited by Clovis peoples, if there was an impact at Saginaw Bay then it had to have been much earlier than 10.9 kya. There should also be well datable impactites at Saginaw Bay, and those have not been confirmed YET.
CL, hypothesis of recent impacts with the Moon at different times have been and are being studied. Which of the First Peoples hold that they have a piece of the Moon? Can you provide links to their accounts?
‘@Ed, Carolina Bays were being exploited by Clovis peoples:
This is NEWS to this new kid-on-the-impact-block: What is the evidence and were can I read up on it, & any clues for the pre-YDR date?
Steve, Ed, there were several other recent items posted, concerning YDR craters, 1) along the St Lawrence, & 2) Lake Erie Shallows (exact name?), see here on COSMIC TUSK:
Once Again: Another large modern crater found in North America.
Yes, Hermann, all these impact sites area available. While primarily giving more good information, they also muddle things up. Too many impact sites can spoil the simple concept.
I’ve noted in different fields that people start with a more or less simple, uncluttered idea and then new evidence starts making them have to modify the rudimentary idea into something more complex. I don’t have a problem with that, as long as everyone agrees that it is a process and final conclusions may have to wait. Possibly a long while.
Saginaw, St Lawrence, Lake Michigan, how the CBs are involved (or not), mixed in with the cometary injection methods Ed mentioned (thanks, Ed) – and I expect other candidate sites to show up, too, before too long.
My main point is that I am glad to see a broad(ening) spectrum of work that supports the idea that something extremely major happened.
One of the lessons to be eventually learned from it all is what Ed has worked so tirelessly on for so long: That if it happened that recently (and very likely more recently and also pretty frequently), then we need to know about it and not pretend that it can’t happen in our time. The idea that we’ve been taught for so long – that nothing has happened in hundreds of thousands of years – is increasingly being shown to be wrong. And at some point, someone has to say, “So what will we do about it – just let it hit us?” All the discussion so far about action have been pie-in-the-sky, without funding to do a serious and actionable study. The time to find out we have been wrong is not when the iron particles are embedding themselves in elephants’ trunks as we all die. (How is that for alarmism?…lol)
Hermann, I agree that Saginaw was something – but what exactly, it isn’t all that clear yet. Evidence yes, but conclusions have to be tentative still. More and more evidence needs to come in – and it is. But what does it all mean? We are still in the fundamental fact-gathering stage – more pieces to the puzzle. And I love it. It makes me want to turn back the clock so I can stay in school and take up Earth Sciences, so by the year 2011 I can be an active player…
Chicken, Rick Firestone also thinks something hit the moon. His claim has not been seized on by the other researchers. Not that he is wrong, but….
While I am on the subject of Rick, always keep in mind guys, Rick is a great guy, a great scientist and deserves immense credit for progress of this idea from fringe to mainstream –but he has very little to do with the on-going research. His contention that there were interaction with the moon and supernovae, etc. are too speculative to publish in most contexts, and not particularly helpful given the rest of the YD team, such that it is, do not accept these theories. The body of theory moving forward is being borne by Allen West, Jim Kennett, Ted Bunch and a host other characters…with some assist and some hindrance from Firestone. Note the authors on the paper.
Finally, there is a pre-print pub brewing that will blow you all away….stay tuned…
thanks for this reference which points to findings that seem indisputable and change the whole story. I am sorry and embarrassed that i had overlooked this, although almost to be expected fro this novice, & part time, impact sleuth.
We now have an even more outrageous challenge to scientific study of the final pleistocene and early holocene: An until recently totally unforeseen reality of multiple ET caused impacts, all on the North American continent, although the black mat seems to be circumpolar and occurs very near the Equator in Venezuela.
This scientist abhors coincidences — is there an outside chance the black mat event did not happen when we think it did, at the YDR boundary?? Not indeed from what I thought the Firestone et al paper(s) had established…
I think Firestone et al have got the RC dates correctly calibrated at roughly 10,850 BCE now. Given the finds at Taima Taima, and the new finds in Venezuela, the direct impacts in this event extended to northern South America.
My hope is that perhaps regional C14 variations due to neutron production in impact may be used to locate some of the larger impact points.
It is interesting to note that neither of these papers is getting any press. The “gradualist establishment” has succeeded in covering the YD event with enough shit that new data supporting it can’t get through.
While in normal studies one could just wait, impact studies are used to estimate the hazard and thus to plan and fund the response. In the meantime the hazard goes severely underestimated and not dealt with.
Further, since it is assumed that comets and comet fragments don’t hit, no money is spent trying to find any data showing that they do.
Is there not also the aspect of the rise of modern man, from paleolithic hunters on the verge of putting their minds to their lives but still at a primitive level? Is this not part of the Clube-Napier theory that civilization came about in part because our ancestors’ minds got so severely rattled by the constant Taurid influx (and perhaps unrelated comets) that they made up all kinds of theories of the heavens or the skies? Not sure who first stated this complex of ideas that may well be more important for humanity to get a grip of its sorry self-image than the impact hazard, as bad as that may be for our survival.
Remember: When the next ET rock or “mountain falls into the sea” (Revelations) there may be no survivors either regional or global to tell the story.
Ed: You are not commenting much on the irritating conicidence aspect. Maybe on closer examination the privileged role of N America (and Northern S America) will disappear, once “these papers [are] getting any press.”
Mr Ed you mean besides great grandma?
quick search got me this one. http://wn.com/Willamette_Meteorite
and there just has to be more someplace.
“Remember: When the next ET rock or “mountain falls into the sea” (Revelations) there may be no survivors either regional or global to tell the story.”
yes the America’s will be going back to where they came from , same song second verse … and the same exact way we got here. or gee maybe Europe is coming this way , no that would be to hard and “illogical” when it was easy to make us go that way ..
you see the tribulation = restoration . and that is really what that “tribulation” is all about . but the sinners will make it about themselves , and make things ugly ….. but they make everything about themselves, so heck what is new.
but his kids will just stay out of big daddies way and wait for him to finish his job to set all things in order .
” be happy don’t worry “…
yep you know the sunday school teachers tell the story of the three hebrew kids in the fiery furness and it being 7 times hotter and how those young men were put there because of their faith and unwilling to bow their heads to a image of a man ,then they were there with a extra guy, jesus ? angel? was with them and went through it with them .
that story is taught for well for a very good reason..
oh boy because we just never know when that kind of faith might come in handy , HUM? and maybe sooner than we think ;p
yep some people are going to live through it ! I suspect they probably won’t even smell smoky either.
because
Dan 12:12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.
and I doubt this is a joke.
I am so happy that CL is convincing us to go back 600 years and forget all the intellectual progress we’ve made. CL evidently is so convinced we are yearning for Jesus to save us and for us all to get swooped up in the Rapture, that the very next thing out of CL’s mouth will have us on our knees, thanking The Lord for CL’s intervention on our behalf.
Get in line, guys!
It doesn’t take religion for mountains or comets or meteors or asteroids to fall out of the “heavens” (outer space).
It is actually the religious leanings of early scientists that translates words from indigenous people’s as “heavens,” mostly because they think ancient peoples were all superstitious and scared of the little points of light in the sky, from which they assigned them names and deified them. One of the first things I gave Velikovsky credit for was that he gave the indigenous ancient people credit for having some common sense. In doing so, he was perhaps the first to dissociate “ancient” from “stupid” and “easily deluded.” Archeologists still haven’t learned this lesson; i.e., archeologists still operate under the misapprehension that ancient people were all a bunch of dumb clucks. The reason the ancients wrote about events “in the sky” (as opposed to “in the heavens”) and giving the participants (big damned bodies coming flaming out of or blazing across the sky) powerful attributes is because those “heavenly bodies” did some powerful things. It is the willful and continuing blindness of the archeologists and geologists and astronomers that holds back this very serious (and non-religious) area of study. If and when they wake up to what Velikovsky realized 60+ years ago – that when ancients said something significant happened up in the sky (translated as “in the heavens” – i.e., where the gods live, but only in the pathetically poor translations) – then those fields will get past their infancies and begin to mature as sciences instead of cheerleaders touting modern man as superior to the peoples of the past.
Archeologists and nearly all astronomers are the beneficiaries of an advanced infrastructure the likes of which the world has almost certainly never seen before. The individual archeologists and astronomers of today (with few exceptions) did nothing to build that infrastructure, but they depend on it. That infrastructure consists of such things as movable type, word processor programs, telescopes, CCDs, computers, electricity, CPR for DNA testing, C124 testing, thermoluminescence testing, electron miscroscopes, and such simple things as pencils and paper – but the list is not confined to just those items. They are also the beneficiaries of the division of labor, without which they would all have backyard gardens and chicken coops, like hundreds of millions of people in the world had until very recently (and some still do). They benefit from refrigeration of food, modern transport to bring food to their nearby supermarkets, as well as power plants, roads, the development of the petrochemical industry, the organization of society into somewhat efficient governments, and many more things that indigenous peoples of the past didn’t have.
But to think that just because those ancients didn’t have such an infrastructure that their brainpower was any less than ours today – well, that is merely the hubris and self-satisfaction of “modernity,” the propensity of thinking that “modern” equals the “apex” of human endeavor.
CL, nothing about “mountains falling out of the sky” equals religion, though ignorant and modern delusional people are free to interpret it that way, if they so choose.
In fact, religion in the modern world is a strong argument that modern man is not superior at all, but is every bit as delusional as the followers of Jim Jones, the Reverend Sun Myung Moon, and followers of Bill Graham and the myriad of televangelists populating our informational air waves.
CL, go wrap yourself up in Jesus, in Revelations, or in Islam, Joseph Smith, or the Torah. Those things have held back humankind for generations, and if you choose to react to events “in the heavens” today, perhaps archeologists of the future will have a good laugh – and look down their noses – at our own modern society.
And if you want, hit us with your best delusional shot, if you think there is any remote chance of convincing any of us here. Waste your time. Go ahead. But be aware: We read one sentence into any of your comments and then ignore the rest, since you have nothing rational to say.
Oh? Did I just equate religion with irrationality? Yes, I did. And that is exactly what we think of your comments: irrational.
My reference to mountain falling into the sea was merely for historical reference: Somebody observed a Taurid or other celestial object come down or heard a report. This must be rare, by someone at a good distance off and on a high mountain so they would not get swept away by the impact tsunami.
I agree, Hermann, that is someone saw the impact, they would likely describe it as a mountain falling into the sea.
I am aggravated at the scientists, who read ancient accounts and translate them as “mumbo jumbo, ignorant savages being supplicants to their gods.” I also am aggravated at those who would interpret such a thing in our own time – or any previous time – as some vengeance of their god against non-believers.
It has nothing to do with religion or beliefs. It has to do with rocks falling from the sky. 100 years ago they didn’t, according to scientists. Today, they don’t, not if they are bigger than a breadbasket, and not if they are dirty snowballs. In the year 2111 (if there is a 2111 according to our calendar), what will the scientists accept as reality?
Your scenario had to have existed. Someone survived and was able to describe it. if we have it happen in our time and then describe it, will future scientists take our factual description and think we are scared of our sky gods?
“The Sun was a young woman and lived in the East, while her brother, the Moon. lived in the West. The girl had a lover who used to come every month in the dark of the moon to court her. He would come at night, and leave before daylight.
Although she talked with him she could not see his face in the dark, and he would not tell her his name, until she was wondering all the time who it could be.
At last she hit upon a plan to find out, so the next time he came, as they were sitting together in the dark of the âsi, she slyly dipped her hand into the cinders and ashes of the fireplace and rubbed it over his face, saying, “Your face is cold; you must have suffered from the wind,” and pretending to be very sorry for him, but he did not know that she had ashes on her hand. After a while he left her and went away again.
The next night when the Moon came up in the sky his face was covered with spots, and then his sister knew he was the one who had been coming to see her. He was so much ashamed to have her know it that he kept as far away as he could at the other end of the sky all the night. Ever since he tries to keep a long way behind the Sun, and when he does sometimes have to come near her in the west he makes himself as thin as a ribbon so that he can hardly be seen.”
2:
“Some old people say that the moon is a ball which was thrown up against the sky in a game a long time ago. They say that two towns were playing against each other, but one of them had the best runners and had almost won the game, when the leader of the other side picked up the ball with his hand–a thing that is not allowed in the game–and tried to throw it to the goal, but it struck against the solid sky vault and was fastened there, to remind players never to cheat. When the moon looks small and pale it is because some one has handled the ball unfairly, and for this reason they formerly played only at the time of a full moon.”
3:
“When the sun or moon is eclipsed it is because a great frog up in the sky is trying to swallow it. Everybody knows this, even the Creeks and the other tribes, and in the olden times, eighty or a hundred years ago, before the great medicine men were all dead, whenever they saw the sun grow dark the people would come together and fire guns and beat the drum, and in a little while this would frighten off the great frog and the sun would be all right again.
The common people call both Sun and Moon Nûñdä, one being “Nûñdä that dwells in the day” and the other “Nûñdä that dwells in the night,” but the priests call the Sun Su’tälidihï’, “Six-killer,” and the Moon Ge’`yägu’ga, though nobody knows now what this word means, or why they use these names. Sometimes people ask the Moon not to let it rain or snow.”
4:
“The great Thunder and his sons, the two Thunder boys, live far in the west above the sky vault. The lightning and the rainbow are their beautiful dress. The priests pray to the Thunder and call him the Red Man, because that is the brightest color of his dress.
There are other Thunders that live lower down, in the cliffs and mountains, and under waterfalls, and travel on invisible bridges from one high peak to another where they have their town houses.
The great Thunders above the sky are kind and helpful when we pray to them, but these others are always plotting mischief. One must not point at the rainbow, or one’s finger will swell at the lower joint.”
Steve and George; here is an image you should look at. It shows astroid ‘Itakawa’. The surface appears to be loosely connected rubble. It is partly in reply to a convo with Steve about particle attraction forming cosmic bodies. I suspect that this sort of body might cause the “shotgun” impacts that have been discussed. If I’m right this could be one of the most dangerous bodies in the Solar System. A near pass of a planet might break the weak gravitational bond and leave a large number of fragments traveling on the same path. http://www.abstractinfluence.com/forums/gallery/image_page.php?album_id=7&image_id=9515
As our understanding of the size of the asteroid population has improved, the estimates of a hazard being created by one asteroid impacting another asteroid has gone up as well.
But the big worries appear to be Long Period Comets and dead comet fragments.
George, maybe this is what Ed had in mind [from Wikipedia]:
As of March 2006, at least eight fragments were known: B, C, G, H, J, L, M & N. On April 18, 2006, the Hubble Space Telescope recorded dozens of pieces of fragments B and G…
The fragments were passing the Earth in late April and early May 2006, coming nearest to the Earth around May 12 at a distance of about 11.9 million km (7.4 million miles). That is a close pass in astronomical terms (0.08 AU) though nothing to be concerned about. In 1930 when it passed the Earth this close, there were meteor showers with as many as 100 meteors per minute. However, recent analysis by P. A. Wiegert et al. suggests that a recurrence of this spectacle is unlikely.
In 2022, the comet fragments are expected to pass nearer to the Earth than in 2006. If the fragments continue to break up, it may become impossible to track all of them since each time a fragment splits, the resulting sub-fragments are fainter and have divergent trajectories.
Is this not part of the Clube-Napier theory that civilization came about in part because our ancestors’ minds got so severely rattled by the constant Taurid influx (and perhaps unrelated comets) that they made up all kinds of theories of the heavens or the skies?
I lean to the idea that civilization, technology leaps at the fundamental level, agriculture, and the domestication of animals all came about at the same time because it wasn’t the first time we’d developed them. I tend toward agreeing with those who think that the megalithic sites all around the world DO logically suggest that there was a non-primitive humanity prior to the 10,000-11,000 BCE event. I further postulate that the megalithic sites themselves were a direct reaction to the Y-D event, building some things more substantially than before – a kind of cosmic “Three Little Pigs” story, with the big bad wolf being the Y-D impactor(s).
It is obvious that if there was a Y-D event (and others), it would be very difficulty for civilization and technology to get any real traction. With each event “sending us back to the stone age,” I find it an unanswerable question as to if we had a prior “high” civilization – or even how MANY.
Ed, in the comment just before yours, said:
I think Firestone et al have got the RC dates correctly calibrated at roughly 10,850 BCE now.
Edgar Cayce, in psychic readings about 80 years ago, put the end of Atlantis at 10,500 BCE. While I don’t push for Atlantis per se to have been real, I am open that some civilization might have existed then, “before the flood.” The more the evidence turns up, the more likely it seems that such a pre-Y-D civilization might have existed. Certainly Cayce’s date for some ultra-catastrophe is as good as any we come up with have to date. That it was a comet vs an unexplainable flood or localized sinking of one sizable sub-continent – does that make a lot of difference? The real thing, in my thinking, is that civilization has not been a long, slow incline, but perhaps more a “civilization interruptus.”
I read Cayce fully 40 years ago, and had no idea if evidence would back him up, so I just looked at it as an interesting story. At that time, it seemed to contradict the scientific ideas of the day. Now, however, it seems like a good bit of evidence supports the general theme of what happened and when. I will say, though, that if a comet had hit then, Cayce should have been able to pick up on that as the cause. But in his defense, Cayce did say that the “Atlanteans” had enough warning of what was to come that they were able to evacuate to “safe” areas. It is more than just interesting that the five places Cayce named (repeatedly) as evacuation locations all happen to be places where the MtDNA X-haplotype appear. That DNA fact is even more remarkable when there is no explanation for how X happened to appear in those five places and not in overland locations in between them. Somehow the X-haplotype leap-frogged the intervening places, something that did not happen to other haplotypes. For DNA researchers, this is an enigma, wrapped in a riddle. And what did Cayce say about those places? He said the evacuees traveled there in “airships.” Yes, people laughed at Cayce and his followers, about assertions of airships. And they still do, because they think they will find a “logical explanation.” But I got a little bit more respect for Cayce when that news came out. The locations? The Yucatan, the Basque region of the Pyrenees, the Levant (Palestine/Egypt/Israel), the NE United States (the Iroquois area), and – the oddest one of all – the Altai region of the Gobi desert, in the middle of Asia.
The first four might have had a connection in that they might have been connected by ocean travel – but in 10,500 BC? No mainstream anthropologist or archeologist would have supported such a premise, not for that time period. (With the collapse of the Clovis barrier, however, they have had to scramble and have, in fact, come up with several ideas on ocean travel as being how the Americas were populated.)
That last one, though – the Gobi – just how does a DNA haplotype get there without leaving traces between it and the other X-haplotype areas? Did these people not mate with other humans in their treks across Asia? If so, they were next to angelic, compared to all other genotypes.
So, in any event, amazingly, Cayce’s “history” of the survivors of the 10,500 BCE event seems all in all to agree fairly well with the current evidence. As those 80 years have come and gone, many geological and anthropological and archeological “theories” have come onto the scene only to be overthrown by new evidence. Yet Cayce’s accounts have become more and more supported by new evidence.
How to explain it? I don’t know. It is claimed that Cayce had a way of accessing the “Universal Mind” – but what is that? It could be anything. Or he could have made it all up – which is the mainstream consensus. If so, he invented something that evidence seems to support more than not. That would simply make him a good guesser. What do I think? I have to admit, I don’t know. It intrigues me, and it gives me a few laughs at the expense of the know-it-alls who have had to eat crow along the way (though they usually don’t; they usually just ignore it and sweep it under the carpet). As an interested bystander, I can just be a member of the audience, and sit and wait to see what will come in the next act of the play.
In rereading my last comment, I apologize for how badly I worded several sentences.
The main point was that if there have been major impacts, what can we really know about what happened before the last big one? An was civilization on the upswing more than once, only to have gotten shot down by an impact?
And as to Cayce, he didn’t say it was a comet or meteor, but he did say that they had some warning and were able to determine where safe places would be – and that implies comets instead of earthquakes. But if they could tell what areas would be hit, in enough time to move to specific, identified safe areas, well, that is better than we can do today. That is, if it is true. I brought in the X-halpotype info because it jibes with the Cayce locations, fice pocations out of five. He had only five, and there are only five X-haplotype areas – and all were in agreement. If scientists succeeded in five out of five, they would call it damned good science. Those were either the luckiest guesses in history or super coincidences – or Cayce somehow was able to do what he said he could do.
the things he listened to where eye witnesses also . as is/was who I listen too.
go back 500-600 years poor baby..
the very few things left , which make mankind different than the animal kingdom is our ability from our creation to worship something , oh dang worship anything.. and do worship just about everything .
you sir would take our humanity away from us and have us swinging from trees in no time. not going back … you sir would have us go where we have never been before , yes boldly go where humanity has never been before to bonobo’s land…. but are for sure headed. “hey hey it’s the monkies” …….
HERMAN did you ever think it is odd they are talking about how the genetics of the Altai are geneticly like the Atla-ntic. and would it be very aggogant of us to assume it is them who says the word wrong, kind of backwards ? just because more people say it wrong ,doesn’t make them right either. chances are the Altaians are still speaking the original language of the Alt/Atl -antic maybe even pronounced kind of like Aztla or Altaz, and so we do not speak the orginal languages of the
atlantic do we? and we can not even smoosh into it these ( extra sounds which usually is about a few extra breaths, or a roll ) . so who, who says it wrongly? anyone’s guess is just a guess. but I think I will put my money on those who are probably are the closest to original speakers. also Notice Ket is up there by them also.
but what I do know is what my ancestors have told us, and you can find it anyplace on the internet . we have some closer “relations” at the time of some great war or event , some of them went
“towards asia ” and some that went “towards india”. yes they are finding haplogroup U5b india, so I wonder if they will find some haplogroup X there..
considering the female clans were family units and wouldn’t have broke up very much , maybe not all female clans went every direction that all the male clans/tribes went.
also Ed I have told you I am just a housewife, and not anykind of man, stop calling me a man .. a PO’d house wife, but a housewife just the same. yes po’d because we’re tired of the bald faced lies and brainwashing and dumbing down of a whole society ..
I didn’t tell you to stop telling native stories! I told you to stop Interpreting them!
yes I’m PO’d because of ages and ages of lies, liberal and lawless , all preached from the pulpits of universities. the lawless always being drawn towards the law, towards truth , and always towards the law, just for the purpose of usurping it. no there is never anything new in any generation.
usurping the law and truth .. it is as old now as mankind!
Thanks for clearing that up again. My apologies for calling you a man. I meet hundreds of people, so it is tough for me to keep each individual in mind, and your thinking reminds me very much of a man I met once.
CL, I have asked you before by what authority you speak to present any demands to me.
When I pass on the traditions, they are exactly as they were passed on by those before me.
When I give my understandings of what was passed on, they are separated and clearly indicated.
You do neither, CL.
Everything is lumped together.
Your understandings of the historical traditions simply do not conform to the material facts.
You persist in trying to present the Andaste as being from Atlantis; they were not. You persist in trying to present the Andaste as some kind of supermen, when in fact all of the peoples pretty much remembered them acting like a-holes, and remembered battling them.
You can be as PO’d as you like about that, but that’s the facts.
Neither the genetics nor the linguistics can be made to fit your hopes and understandings.
Let me be a little more specific. Your thinking reminds me of that of Ross Hamilton, who has taken a made up colonial name “Allegewi” and mistaken it for a real people.
I’ll get to CL in a minute, but let me start with Mr. Cox:
JusgophukyerselphThursday, May 26, 2011 6:29 PM
From: “Dennis Cox”
To: “Ed Grondine” , “George Howard”
Ed said
“Dennis graffitied the Assiniboine account.”
I don’t know if I’d call it graffiti. It was just the sweet unvarnished truth. Especially the things I said about you.
I think you have delusions of grandeur Ed. I don’t know what you think you are. But the dean of impact science you ain’t.
I know for a fact that many prominent planetary scientists think you’re full of shit. Whenever someone doesn’t go along with your thinking you use personal ad hominem attacks instead of providing references, and speaking to the science. And you persist in the public lie that David Morison is a supporter of the nemisis hypothesis, no matter how many times he has corrected you.
But of course you need to devalue his opinions, since he also thinks you’re delusional, and unreliable.
He, and some of the planetary scientists at NAU, and NMU tell me that I should just ignor your sorry delusional ass. But you make it hard when you keep bringing me up in public. Maybe I should just publish those emails in a blog of it’s own so I can plop down a public link to them every time you spew some more of your crap. Folks might be interested in reading what the scientists you keep bad-mouthing have to say about you.
Since I can prove you’re a common, ordinary, liar, I stand by every word in that Assiniboine thread. You are a liar, and a fraud, right up there with Velikovsky.
off-topic posting of a private email in a totally unrelated comment thread does fit your unique style of ad hominem chicken shit Ed
Heck, since I’ve stated repeatedly, and publically, that I think you are a liar, and a fraud, and that you belong in the same category with Velikovsky. So it’s pretty obvious why you’re so bent on using any piece of ad hominem crap you can think of to troll any comments I might make, and discredit me.
But I was really curious why you were always running NASA’s David Morison down with the same small minded ad hominem crap. I make no bones that think you’re a delusional old turd, and a common web troll. You hate me for that. No mystery why. But I wondered what the hell did Dave Morrison ever do, that made you feel the need to trash him publically at every opportunity? So told him what you’ve been saying. And I asked him where he stood on the Nemesis issue. This is what he had to say:
I do my best to ignore Grondine. He is not reliable. For more than a decade he has consistently written that I favor the Nemesis hypotheses, and he sticks to this unfounded belief no matter how many times I correct him. He used to show up at scientific meetings to ask weird questions, but he doesn’t seem to travel any more. As you note, however, his rejections by scientists have no effect on his vast self-confidence. I have no idea who he refers to as “some people from Arizona”. He has had run-Ins with my colleagues from California, Colorado, and New Mexico more than Arizona. But it doesn’t matter, as we all now ignore him.
~David Morrison
I’m not the only one who thinks you’re a delusional old joke Ed. There’s a pretty fair number of world class planetary scientists who’re in complete agreement with me.
This all is the way science is done – the nitty gritty papers that support or conflict with predictive concepts like the Firestone et al team came up with. Do the little things, the detailed studies support it or do they undercut it? If the big picture idea doesn’t hold water, it will begin show up in papers done at this level.
That this and the Greenland black mat and various other studies seem to add weight to the Y-D impact theory, they begin to outweigh the Holliday and Pinter sloppy hatchet jobs. This is as it should be. The old guard will always be able to drag out bits of their memes and piece together something arguing that the existing theories don’t need no stinkin’ changes. New studies are tending more and more to mention Firestone. This lends credence to Firestone’s ideas, as they wouldn’t mention it if they didn’t in the future want to be seen as having been open to it – but only if they think it has merit. Ergo, they DO think it has merit.
That doesn’t mean it is RIGHT. But it does mean it makes some sense, and Firestone will be the first to tell everyone that it isn’t a finished product.
With so many sites producing evidence, but no single clear event or ground zero found yet, it is this level of evidence that will allow Firestone or someone else to fit the pieces together. Without enough pieces it is gobbledgook. So finding more pieces is a GOOD thing.
I am excited that these pieces are turning up. Effort is being made on just this time period. Focus on this is excellent. It means that others want to be part of the unraveling.
Firestone has most everything he found being replicated by others – surely a sign he was on the right trail. No, the smoking gun hasn’t been found yet. With the possible variations of impact at the time ice sheets and ocean covered the world, the evidence will not conform to the prior concept of meteor impacts. That it almost certainly was a comet means people have to collect evidence of cometary impacts, which are different from meteors, but also different from each other. So, dozens or scores of types of cometary impacts may need to be sorted out and identified before someone can connect the dots on the Y-D impactor. In the absence of a clearly identified type, Firestone is a sitting duck. Yet at the same time, people are slowly coming out of the woodwork to support his basic premise.
Does this study prove anything? Not by itself. Circumstantially, it adds weight for SOMETHING having happened.
Everyone gets to get in on the sleuthing, and that makes it not only interesting, but also more fun than science usually is.
Steve,
are you discounting Michael Davias’ Saginaw Bay hypothesis where you write:
but no single clear event or ground zero found yet
Surely this is not meant to be taken verbatim, there was plenty of dry, ice-free land:
ice sheets and ocean covered the world
one clue is something hit the moon and it or the moon hit us, or maybe both hit us someplace . see cosmic tusks previous articles.
so what is the largest strike on the moon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Pole_–_Aitken_basin
well it’s size would just about covers the whole of North America ! especially from mountain range to mountain range.
then any kindergartner study could be done, and by cut and paste, paying special attention to watching the movement of Caribbean islands and how north america pulled away from South America around those islands , what is now called the canary islands . well It seems pretty sure it hit north america and not South America .
you can also go to the tip of south america and see the whole movement in a sediment trail.
well that sure would explain some of the things which are past down from around the world. and why some tribes are sure they have pieces of the moon.. but of course that would be just one such eye witnessed event science has never even tried to explain.
Hi Steve, Hermann, CL –
Steve, its called a “hypothesis”, and in this case what it does is try to explain the existing data. That hypothesis will also predict other data, such as the simultaneous loss of human life.
Firestone has a separate hypothesis as to cometary injection mechanisms, and it is important not to confuse the two hypothesis.
Hermann, in as much as the Carolina Bays were being exploited by Clovis peoples, if there was an impact at Saginaw Bay then it had to have been much earlier than 10.9 kya. There should also be well datable impactites at Saginaw Bay, and those have not been confirmed YET.
CL, hypothesis of recent impacts with the Moon at different times have been and are being studied. Which of the First Peoples hold that they have a piece of the Moon? Can you provide links to their accounts?
‘@Ed, Carolina Bays were being exploited by Clovis peoples:
This is NEWS to this new kid-on-the-impact-block: What is the evidence and were can I read up on it, & any clues for the pre-YDR date?
Steve, Ed, there were several other recent items posted, concerning YDR craters, 1) along the St Lawrence, & 2) Lake Erie Shallows (exact name?), see here on COSMIC TUSK:
Once Again: Another large modern crater found in North America.
Yes, Hermann, all these impact sites area available. While primarily giving more good information, they also muddle things up. Too many impact sites can spoil the simple concept.
I’ve noted in different fields that people start with a more or less simple, uncluttered idea and then new evidence starts making them have to modify the rudimentary idea into something more complex. I don’t have a problem with that, as long as everyone agrees that it is a process and final conclusions may have to wait. Possibly a long while.
Saginaw, St Lawrence, Lake Michigan, how the CBs are involved (or not), mixed in with the cometary injection methods Ed mentioned (thanks, Ed) – and I expect other candidate sites to show up, too, before too long.
My main point is that I am glad to see a broad(ening) spectrum of work that supports the idea that something extremely major happened.
One of the lessons to be eventually learned from it all is what Ed has worked so tirelessly on for so long: That if it happened that recently (and very likely more recently and also pretty frequently), then we need to know about it and not pretend that it can’t happen in our time. The idea that we’ve been taught for so long – that nothing has happened in hundreds of thousands of years – is increasingly being shown to be wrong. And at some point, someone has to say, “So what will we do about it – just let it hit us?” All the discussion so far about action have been pie-in-the-sky, without funding to do a serious and actionable study. The time to find out we have been wrong is not when the iron particles are embedding themselves in elephants’ trunks as we all die. (How is that for alarmism?…lol)
Hermann, I agree that Saginaw was something – but what exactly, it isn’t all that clear yet. Evidence yes, but conclusions have to be tentative still. More and more evidence needs to come in – and it is. But what does it all mean? We are still in the fundamental fact-gathering stage – more pieces to the puzzle. And I love it. It makes me want to turn back the clock so I can stay in school and take up Earth Sciences, so by the year 2011 I can be an active player…
Chicken, Rick Firestone also thinks something hit the moon. His claim has not been seized on by the other researchers. Not that he is wrong, but….
While I am on the subject of Rick, always keep in mind guys, Rick is a great guy, a great scientist and deserves immense credit for progress of this idea from fringe to mainstream –but he has very little to do with the on-going research. His contention that there were interaction with the moon and supernovae, etc. are too speculative to publish in most contexts, and not particularly helpful given the rest of the YD team, such that it is, do not accept these theories. The body of theory moving forward is being borne by Allen West, Jim Kennett, Ted Bunch and a host other characters…with some assist and some hindrance from Firestone. Note the authors on the paper.
Finally, there is a pre-print pub brewing that will blow you all away….stay tuned…
Hi Hermann –
The paper with the clovis finds at a Carolina Bay(s) is here at the Tusk:
https://cosmictusk.com/southeastern-archaeology-carolina-bays-time-capsules-of-culture-and-climate-change
its late and I’m tired. If I remember, they were surface finds.
see my comment there
Hi George –
After 14 years of this, I hope that that is one hell of a pre pub and pub.
Ed, –
thanks for this reference which points to findings that seem indisputable and change the whole story. I am sorry and embarrassed that i had overlooked this, although almost to be expected fro this novice, & part time, impact sleuth.
We now have an even more outrageous challenge to scientific study of the final pleistocene and early holocene: An until recently totally unforeseen reality of multiple ET caused impacts, all on the North American continent, although the black mat seems to be circumpolar and occurs very near the Equator in Venezuela.
This scientist abhors coincidences — is there an outside chance the black mat event did not happen when we think it did, at the YDR boundary?? Not indeed from what I thought the Firestone et al paper(s) had established…
Hi Hermann –
I think Firestone et al have got the RC dates correctly calibrated at roughly 10,850 BCE now. Given the finds at Taima Taima, and the new finds in Venezuela, the direct impacts in this event extended to northern South America.
My hope is that perhaps regional C14 variations due to neutron production in impact may be used to locate some of the larger impact points.
It is interesting to note that neither of these papers is getting any press. The “gradualist establishment” has succeeded in covering the YD event with enough shit that new data supporting it can’t get through.
While in normal studies one could just wait, impact studies are used to estimate the hazard and thus to plan and fund the response. In the meantime the hazard goes severely underestimated and not dealt with.
Further, since it is assumed that comets and comet fragments don’t hit, no money is spent trying to find any data showing that they do.
Is there not also the aspect of the rise of modern man, from paleolithic hunters on the verge of putting their minds to their lives but still at a primitive level? Is this not part of the Clube-Napier theory that civilization came about in part because our ancestors’ minds got so severely rattled by the constant Taurid influx (and perhaps unrelated comets) that they made up all kinds of theories of the heavens or the skies? Not sure who first stated this complex of ideas that may well be more important for humanity to get a grip of its sorry self-image than the impact hazard, as bad as that may be for our survival.
Remember: When the next ET rock or “mountain falls into the sea” (Revelations) there may be no survivors either regional or global to tell the story.
Ed: You are not commenting much on the irritating conicidence aspect. Maybe on closer examination the privileged role of N America (and Northern S America) will disappear, once “these papers [are] getting any press.”
Mr Ed you mean besides great grandma?
quick search got me this one.
http://wn.com/Willamette_Meteorite
and there just has to be more someplace.
“Remember: When the next ET rock or “mountain falls into the sea” (Revelations) there may be no survivors either regional or global to tell the story.”
yes the America’s will be going back to where they came from , same song second verse … and the same exact way we got here. or gee maybe Europe is coming this way , no that would be to hard and “illogical” when it was easy to make us go that way ..
you see the tribulation = restoration . and that is really what that “tribulation” is all about . but the sinners will make it about themselves , and make things ugly ….. but they make everything about themselves, so heck what is new.
but his kids will just stay out of big daddies way and wait for him to finish his job to set all things in order .
” be happy don’t worry “…
yep you know the sunday school teachers tell the story of the three hebrew kids in the fiery furness and it being 7 times hotter and how those young men were put there because of their faith and unwilling to bow their heads to a image of a man ,then they were there with a extra guy, jesus ? angel? was with them and went through it with them .
that story is taught for well for a very good reason..
oh boy because we just never know when that kind of faith might come in handy , HUM? and maybe sooner than we think ;p
yep some people are going to live through it ! I suspect they probably won’t even smell smoky either.
because
Dan 12:12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.
and I doubt this is a joke.
I am so happy that CL is convincing us to go back 600 years and forget all the intellectual progress we’ve made. CL evidently is so convinced we are yearning for Jesus to save us and for us all to get swooped up in the Rapture, that the very next thing out of CL’s mouth will have us on our knees, thanking The Lord for CL’s intervention on our behalf.
Get in line, guys!
It doesn’t take religion for mountains or comets or meteors or asteroids to fall out of the “heavens” (outer space).
It is actually the religious leanings of early scientists that translates words from indigenous people’s as “heavens,” mostly because they think ancient peoples were all superstitious and scared of the little points of light in the sky, from which they assigned them names and deified them. One of the first things I gave Velikovsky credit for was that he gave the indigenous ancient people credit for having some common sense. In doing so, he was perhaps the first to dissociate “ancient” from “stupid” and “easily deluded.” Archeologists still haven’t learned this lesson; i.e., archeologists still operate under the misapprehension that ancient people were all a bunch of dumb clucks. The reason the ancients wrote about events “in the sky” (as opposed to “in the heavens”) and giving the participants (big damned bodies coming flaming out of or blazing across the sky) powerful attributes is because those “heavenly bodies” did some powerful things. It is the willful and continuing blindness of the archeologists and geologists and astronomers that holds back this very serious (and non-religious) area of study. If and when they wake up to what Velikovsky realized 60+ years ago – that when ancients said something significant happened up in the sky (translated as “in the heavens” – i.e., where the gods live, but only in the pathetically poor translations) – then those fields will get past their infancies and begin to mature as sciences instead of cheerleaders touting modern man as superior to the peoples of the past.
Archeologists and nearly all astronomers are the beneficiaries of an advanced infrastructure the likes of which the world has almost certainly never seen before. The individual archeologists and astronomers of today (with few exceptions) did nothing to build that infrastructure, but they depend on it. That infrastructure consists of such things as movable type, word processor programs, telescopes, CCDs, computers, electricity, CPR for DNA testing, C124 testing, thermoluminescence testing, electron miscroscopes, and such simple things as pencils and paper – but the list is not confined to just those items. They are also the beneficiaries of the division of labor, without which they would all have backyard gardens and chicken coops, like hundreds of millions of people in the world had until very recently (and some still do). They benefit from refrigeration of food, modern transport to bring food to their nearby supermarkets, as well as power plants, roads, the development of the petrochemical industry, the organization of society into somewhat efficient governments, and many more things that indigenous peoples of the past didn’t have.
But to think that just because those ancients didn’t have such an infrastructure that their brainpower was any less than ours today – well, that is merely the hubris and self-satisfaction of “modernity,” the propensity of thinking that “modern” equals the “apex” of human endeavor.
CL, nothing about “mountains falling out of the sky” equals religion, though ignorant and modern delusional people are free to interpret it that way, if they so choose.
In fact, religion in the modern world is a strong argument that modern man is not superior at all, but is every bit as delusional as the followers of Jim Jones, the Reverend Sun Myung Moon, and followers of Bill Graham and the myriad of televangelists populating our informational air waves.
CL, go wrap yourself up in Jesus, in Revelations, or in Islam, Joseph Smith, or the Torah. Those things have held back humankind for generations, and if you choose to react to events “in the heavens” today, perhaps archeologists of the future will have a good laugh – and look down their noses – at our own modern society.
And if you want, hit us with your best delusional shot, if you think there is any remote chance of convincing any of us here. Waste your time. Go ahead. But be aware: We read one sentence into any of your comments and then ignore the rest, since you have nothing rational to say.
Oh? Did I just equate religion with irrationality? Yes, I did. And that is exactly what we think of your comments: irrational.
My reference to mountain falling into the sea was merely for historical reference: Somebody observed a Taurid or other celestial object come down or heard a report. This must be rare, by someone at a good distance off and on a high mountain so they would not get swept away by the impact tsunami.
I agree, Hermann, that is someone saw the impact, they would likely describe it as a mountain falling into the sea.
I am aggravated at the scientists, who read ancient accounts and translate them as “mumbo jumbo, ignorant savages being supplicants to their gods.” I also am aggravated at those who would interpret such a thing in our own time – or any previous time – as some vengeance of their god against non-believers.
It has nothing to do with religion or beliefs. It has to do with rocks falling from the sky. 100 years ago they didn’t, according to scientists. Today, they don’t, not if they are bigger than a breadbasket, and not if they are dirty snowballs. In the year 2111 (if there is a 2111 according to our calendar), what will the scientists accept as reality?
Your scenario had to have existed. Someone survived and was able to describe it. if we have it happen in our time and then describe it, will future scientists take our factual description and think we are scared of our sky gods?
Hi CL –
http://www.meteorites.org/?page_id=15
This is strange. When I met with members of the Grande Ronde, I did not know of that translation of
“Tomonowos”.
I’ve asked you before which people you have ancestry from, and I ask you again. Would you share what your grandmother told you?
I don’t think your hope that an impact will make the Europeans and other new arrivals go away is likely to be fulfilled.
1:
“The Sun was a young woman and lived in the East, while her brother, the Moon. lived in the West. The girl had a lover who used to come every month in the dark of the moon to court her. He would come at night, and leave before daylight.
Although she talked with him she could not see his face in the dark, and he would not tell her his name, until she was wondering all the time who it could be.
At last she hit upon a plan to find out, so the next time he came, as they were sitting together in the dark of the âsi, she slyly dipped her hand into the cinders and ashes of the fireplace and rubbed it over his face, saying, “Your face is cold; you must have suffered from the wind,” and pretending to be very sorry for him, but he did not know that she had ashes on her hand. After a while he left her and went away again.
The next night when the Moon came up in the sky his face was covered with spots, and then his sister knew he was the one who had been coming to see her. He was so much ashamed to have her know it that he kept as far away as he could at the other end of the sky all the night. Ever since he tries to keep a long way behind the Sun, and when he does sometimes have to come near her in the west he makes himself as thin as a ribbon so that he can hardly be seen.”
2:
“Some old people say that the moon is a ball which was thrown up against the sky in a game a long time ago. They say that two towns were playing against each other, but one of them had the best runners and had almost won the game, when the leader of the other side picked up the ball with his hand–a thing that is not allowed in the game–and tried to throw it to the goal, but it struck against the solid sky vault and was fastened there, to remind players never to cheat. When the moon looks small and pale it is because some one has handled the ball unfairly, and for this reason they formerly played only at the time of a full moon.”
3:
“When the sun or moon is eclipsed it is because a great frog up in the sky is trying to swallow it. Everybody knows this, even the Creeks and the other tribes, and in the olden times, eighty or a hundred years ago, before the great medicine men were all dead, whenever they saw the sun grow dark the people would come together and fire guns and beat the drum, and in a little while this would frighten off the great frog and the sun would be all right again.
The common people call both Sun and Moon Nûñdä, one being “Nûñdä that dwells in the day” and the other “Nûñdä that dwells in the night,” but the priests call the Sun Su’tälidihï’, “Six-killer,” and the Moon Ge’`yägu’ga, though nobody knows now what this word means, or why they use these names. Sometimes people ask the Moon not to let it rain or snow.”
4:
“The great Thunder and his sons, the two Thunder boys, live far in the west above the sky vault. The lightning and the rainbow are their beautiful dress. The priests pray to the Thunder and call him the Red Man, because that is the brightest color of his dress.
There are other Thunders that live lower down, in the cliffs and mountains, and under waterfalls, and travel on invisible bridges from one high peak to another where they have their town houses.
The great Thunders above the sky are kind and helpful when we pray to them, but these others are always plotting mischief. One must not point at the rainbow, or one’s finger will swell at the lower joint.”
sources unknown
Steve and George; here is an image you should look at. It shows astroid ‘Itakawa’. The surface appears to be loosely connected rubble. It is partly in reply to a convo with Steve about particle attraction forming cosmic bodies. I suspect that this sort of body might cause the “shotgun” impacts that have been discussed. If I’m right this could be one of the most dangerous bodies in the Solar System. A near pass of a planet might break the weak gravitational bond and leave a large number of fragments traveling on the same path.
http://www.abstractinfluence.com/forums/gallery/image_page.php?album_id=7&image_id=9515
Hi Paul –
As our understanding of the size of the asteroid population has improved, the estimates of a hazard being created by one asteroid impacting another asteroid has gone up as well.
But the big worries appear to be Long Period Comets and dead comet fragments.
On this subject, it is interesting to note the lack of public reports
on the observations of Comet 73P’s fragments.
We’ll see.
Ed, what do you mean? Anything new with 73p?
George, maybe this is what Ed had in mind [from Wikipedia]:
As of March 2006, at least eight fragments were known: B, C, G, H, J, L, M & N. On April 18, 2006, the Hubble Space Telescope recorded dozens of pieces of fragments B and G…
The fragments were passing the Earth in late April and early May 2006, coming nearest to the Earth around May 12 at a distance of about 11.9 million km (7.4 million miles). That is a close pass in astronomical terms (0.08 AU) though nothing to be concerned about. In 1930 when it passed the Earth this close, there were meteor showers with as many as 100 meteors per minute. However, recent analysis by P. A. Wiegert et al. suggests that a recurrence of this spectacle is unlikely.
In 2022, the comet fragments are expected to pass nearer to the Earth than in 2006. If the fragments continue to break up, it may become impossible to track all of them since each time a fragment splits, the resulting sub-fragments are fainter and have divergent trajectories.
Also this [same source]:
The primary component 73P-C will come to perihelion on 16 October 2011.
Thanks, Herm. I’ll make my reservations on Virgin Galatic accordingly.
What, George, to make sure you’re outside the kill zone?
‘@Hermann (May 6t7ht, 6:51pm):
I lean to the idea that civilization, technology leaps at the fundamental level, agriculture, and the domestication of animals all came about at the same time because it wasn’t the first time we’d developed them. I tend toward agreeing with those who think that the megalithic sites all around the world DO logically suggest that there was a non-primitive humanity prior to the 10,000-11,000 BCE event. I further postulate that the megalithic sites themselves were a direct reaction to the Y-D event, building some things more substantially than before – a kind of cosmic “Three Little Pigs” story, with the big bad wolf being the Y-D impactor(s).
It is obvious that if there was a Y-D event (and others), it would be very difficulty for civilization and technology to get any real traction. With each event “sending us back to the stone age,” I find it an unanswerable question as to if we had a prior “high” civilization – or even how MANY.
Ed, in the comment just before yours, said:
Edgar Cayce, in psychic readings about 80 years ago, put the end of Atlantis at 10,500 BCE. While I don’t push for Atlantis per se to have been real, I am open that some civilization might have existed then, “before the flood.” The more the evidence turns up, the more likely it seems that such a pre-Y-D civilization might have existed. Certainly Cayce’s date for some ultra-catastrophe is as good as any we come up with have to date. That it was a comet vs an unexplainable flood or localized sinking of one sizable sub-continent – does that make a lot of difference? The real thing, in my thinking, is that civilization has not been a long, slow incline, but perhaps more a “civilization interruptus.”
I read Cayce fully 40 years ago, and had no idea if evidence would back him up, so I just looked at it as an interesting story. At that time, it seemed to contradict the scientific ideas of the day. Now, however, it seems like a good bit of evidence supports the general theme of what happened and when. I will say, though, that if a comet had hit then, Cayce should have been able to pick up on that as the cause. But in his defense, Cayce did say that the “Atlanteans” had enough warning of what was to come that they were able to evacuate to “safe” areas. It is more than just interesting that the five places Cayce named (repeatedly) as evacuation locations all happen to be places where the MtDNA X-haplotype appear. That DNA fact is even more remarkable when there is no explanation for how X happened to appear in those five places and not in overland locations in between them. Somehow the X-haplotype leap-frogged the intervening places, something that did not happen to other haplotypes. For DNA researchers, this is an enigma, wrapped in a riddle. And what did Cayce say about those places? He said the evacuees traveled there in “airships.” Yes, people laughed at Cayce and his followers, about assertions of airships. And they still do, because they think they will find a “logical explanation.” But I got a little bit more respect for Cayce when that news came out. The locations? The Yucatan, the Basque region of the Pyrenees, the Levant (Palestine/Egypt/Israel), the NE United States (the Iroquois area), and – the oddest one of all – the Altai region of the Gobi desert, in the middle of Asia.
The first four might have had a connection in that they might have been connected by ocean travel – but in 10,500 BC? No mainstream anthropologist or archeologist would have supported such a premise, not for that time period. (With the collapse of the Clovis barrier, however, they have had to scramble and have, in fact, come up with several ideas on ocean travel as being how the Americas were populated.)
That last one, though – the Gobi – just how does a DNA haplotype get there without leaving traces between it and the other X-haplotype areas? Did these people not mate with other humans in their treks across Asia? If so, they were next to angelic, compared to all other genotypes.
So, in any event, amazingly, Cayce’s “history” of the survivors of the 10,500 BCE event seems all in all to agree fairly well with the current evidence. As those 80 years have come and gone, many geological and anthropological and archeological “theories” have come onto the scene only to be overthrown by new evidence. Yet Cayce’s accounts have become more and more supported by new evidence.
How to explain it? I don’t know. It is claimed that Cayce had a way of accessing the “Universal Mind” – but what is that? It could be anything. Or he could have made it all up – which is the mainstream consensus. If so, he invented something that evidence seems to support more than not. That would simply make him a good guesser. What do I think? I have to admit, I don’t know. It intrigues me, and it gives me a few laughs at the expense of the know-it-alls who have had to eat crow along the way (though they usually don’t; they usually just ignore it and sweep it under the carpet). As an interested bystander, I can just be a member of the audience, and sit and wait to see what will come in the next act of the play.
In rereading my last comment, I apologize for how badly I worded several sentences.
The main point was that if there have been major impacts, what can we really know about what happened before the last big one? An was civilization on the upswing more than once, only to have gotten shot down by an impact?
And as to Cayce, he didn’t say it was a comet or meteor, but he did say that they had some warning and were able to determine where safe places would be – and that implies comets instead of earthquakes. But if they could tell what areas would be hit, in enough time to move to specific, identified safe areas, well, that is better than we can do today. That is, if it is true. I brought in the X-halpotype info because it jibes with the Cayce locations, fice pocations out of five. He had only five, and there are only five X-haplotype areas – and all were in agreement. If scientists succeeded in five out of five, they would call it damned good science. Those were either the luckiest guesses in history or super coincidences – or Cayce somehow was able to do what he said he could do.
I hope that made it clearer.
the things he listened to where eye witnesses also . as is/was who I listen too.
go back 500-600 years poor baby..
the very few things left , which make mankind different than the animal kingdom is our ability from our creation to worship something , oh dang worship anything.. and do worship just about everything .
you sir would take our humanity away from us and have us swinging from trees in no time. not going back … you sir would have us go where we have never been before , yes boldly go where humanity has never been before to bonobo’s land…. but are for sure headed. “hey hey it’s the monkies” …….
‘@Steve, Chicken:
Amazing stuff, MtDNA X-haplotype. Wikipedia hast the story, map. Didn’t know, confirms or supports Solutrean hypothesis.
Not happy about Cayce reference psychics have a way to fool people with hit & miss prognosticacians.
HERMAN did you ever think it is odd they are talking about how the genetics of the Altai are geneticly like the Atla-ntic. and would it be very aggogant of us to assume it is them who says the word wrong, kind of backwards ? just because more people say it wrong ,doesn’t make them right either. chances are the Altaians are still speaking the original language of the Alt/Atl -antic maybe even pronounced kind of like Aztla or Altaz, and so we do not speak the orginal languages of the
atlantic do we? and we can not even smoosh into it these ( extra sounds which usually is about a few extra breaths, or a roll ) . so who, who says it wrongly? anyone’s guess is just a guess. but I think I will put my money on those who are probably are the closest to original speakers. also Notice Ket is up there by them also.
but what I do know is what my ancestors have told us, and you can find it anyplace on the internet . we have some closer “relations” at the time of some great war or event , some of them went
“towards asia ” and some that went “towards india”. yes they are finding haplogroup U5b india, so I wonder if they will find some haplogroup X there..
considering the female clans were family units and wouldn’t have broke up very much , maybe not all female clans went every direction that all the male clans/tribes went.
also Ed I have told you I am just a housewife, and not anykind of man, stop calling me a man .. a PO’d house wife, but a housewife just the same. yes po’d because we’re tired of the bald faced lies and brainwashing and dumbing down of a whole society ..
I didn’t tell you to stop telling native stories! I told you to stop Interpreting them!
yes I’m PO’d because of ages and ages of lies, liberal and lawless , all preached from the pulpits of universities. the lawless always being drawn towards the law, towards truth , and always towards the law, just for the purpose of usurping it. no there is never anything new in any generation.
usurping the law and truth .. it is as old now as mankind!
CL –
Thanks for clearing that up again. My apologies for calling you a man. I meet hundreds of people, so it is tough for me to keep each individual in mind, and your thinking reminds me very much of a man I met once.
CL, I have asked you before by what authority you speak to present any demands to me.
When I pass on the traditions, they are exactly as they were passed on by those before me.
When I give my understandings of what was passed on, they are separated and clearly indicated.
You do neither, CL.
Everything is lumped together.
Your understandings of the historical traditions simply do not conform to the material facts.
You persist in trying to present the Andaste as being from Atlantis; they were not. You persist in trying to present the Andaste as some kind of supermen, when in fact all of the peoples pretty much remembered them acting like a-holes, and remembered battling them.
You can be as PO’d as you like about that, but that’s the facts.
Neither the genetics nor the linguistics can be made to fit your hopes and understandings.
CL –
Let me be a little more specific. Your thinking reminds me of that of Ross Hamilton, who has taken a made up colonial name “Allegewi” and mistaken it for a real people.
Hi Paul –
I’ll get to CL in a minute, but let me start with Mr. Cox:
JusgophukyerselphThursday, May 26, 2011 6:29 PM
From: “Dennis Cox”
To: “Ed Grondine” , “George Howard”
Ed said
“Dennis graffitied the Assiniboine account.”
I don’t know if I’d call it graffiti. It was just the sweet unvarnished truth. Especially the things I said about you.
I think you have delusions of grandeur Ed. I don’t know what you think you are. But the dean of impact science you ain’t.
I know for a fact that many prominent planetary scientists think you’re full of shit. Whenever someone doesn’t go along with your thinking you use personal ad hominem attacks instead of providing references, and speaking to the science. And you persist in the public lie that David Morison is a supporter of the nemisis hypothesis, no matter how many times he has corrected you.
But of course you need to devalue his opinions, since he also thinks you’re delusional, and unreliable.
He, and some of the planetary scientists at NAU, and NMU tell me that I should just ignor your sorry delusional ass. But you make it hard when you keep bringing me up in public. Maybe I should just publish those emails in a blog of it’s own so I can plop down a public link to them every time you spew some more of your crap. Folks might be interested in reading what the scientists you keep bad-mouthing have to say about you.
Since I can prove you’re a common, ordinary, liar, I stand by every word in that Assiniboine thread. You are a liar, and a fraud, right up there with Velikovsky.
Just go fuck yer self Ed.
Dennis
off-topic posting of a private email in a totally unrelated comment thread does fit your unique style of ad hominem chicken shit Ed
Heck, since I’ve stated repeatedly, and publically, that I think you are a liar, and a fraud, and that you belong in the same category with Velikovsky. So it’s pretty obvious why you’re so bent on using any piece of ad hominem crap you can think of to troll any comments I might make, and discredit me.
But I was really curious why you were always running NASA’s David Morison down with the same small minded ad hominem crap. I make no bones that think you’re a delusional old turd, and a common web troll. You hate me for that. No mystery why. But I wondered what the hell did Dave Morrison ever do, that made you feel the need to trash him publically at every opportunity? So told him what you’ve been saying. And I asked him where he stood on the Nemesis issue. This is what he had to say:
I’m not the only one who thinks you’re a delusional old joke Ed. There’s a pretty fair number of world class planetary scientists who’re in complete agreement with me.